"Ali hate"..... what's the point??

[Beanflicker]

[brocktonblockbust]

Cassius Clay called Archie Moore all kinds of insulting names and openly mocked him. Moore was 48 and clay was 24 then.

Archie Moore was perhaps the most kind, interesting. entrepreneurial, good hearted, humble man boxing has ever seen. who in their right mind would want to disrespect the great iconic Archie Moore?

Where was clays respect for his elders?

What else you going to bring up? Ali trained with Archie Moore and had a lot of respect for him.

THAT IS PURE bull. Archie Moore gave an interview to Howard Cosell saying in HIS gym where clay trained, they had rules that all boxers pitched in and helped clean up and cook and wash dishes in the kitchen. He said cassius clay was too arrogant and refused to help around the gym, refused to clean up and wash dishes, etc.. AND THAT HE DIDNT LIKE CLAY'S ATTITUDE. @Master have you not heard all these things about clay?

[Beanflicker]

Cassius Clay called Archie Moore all kinds of insulting names and openly mocked him. Moore was 48 and clay was 24 then.

Archie Moore was perhaps the most kind, interesting. entrepreneurial, good hearted, humble man boxing has ever seen. who in their right mind would want to disrespect the great iconic Archie Moore?

Where was clays respect for his elders?

What else you going to bring up? Ali trained with Archie Moore and had a lot of respect for him.

THAT IS PURE bull. Archie Moore gave an interview to Howard Cosell saying in HIS gym where clay trained, they had rules that all boxers pitched in and helped clean up and cook and wash dishes in the kitchen. He said cassius clay was too arrogant and refused to help around the gym, refused to clean up and wash dishes, etc.. AND THAT HE DIDNT LIKE CLAY'S ATTITUDE. @Master have you not heard all these things about clay?

Brock is 100% right, George Plimpton went into that in his book "Shadow Box", which is a great read for any boxing fan.

[Bill Paxtom]

Archie Moore

"Cassius has talent, no doubt about it. But he's all about himself, and does not offer
a helping hand, not only to me but the other fine boxers here."

"That shows me that he has no gratitude."

"Look, the 'Faversham Group' asked me to take Clay in. I didn't want this kid here in the
first place. I don't have time to 'Baby Sit' him, and tell him that he's good. I'm trying to
help out '10' other kids here."

"Yes he's 'selfish' . I can't just keep telling him that he's good every hour."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What's wrong with that. I needed be told everyday that I was 'beautiful'. At least '5' times an hour."

Loni Anderson

[Master]

Cassius Clay called Archie Moore all kinds of insulting names and openly mocked him. Moore was 48 and clay was 24 then.

Archie Moore was perhaps the most kind, interesting. entrepreneurial, good hearted, humble man boxing has ever seen. who in their right mind would want to disrespect the great iconic Archie Moore?

Where was clays respect for his elders?

What else you going to bring up? Ali trained with Archie Moore and had a lot of respect for him.

THAT IS PURE bull. Archie Moore gave an interview to Howard Cosell saying in HIS gym where clay trained, they had rules that all boxers pitched in and helped clean up and cook and wash dishes in the kitchen. He said cassius clay was too arrogant and refused to help around the gym, refused to clean up and wash dishes, etc.. AND THAT HE DIDNT LIKE CLAY'S ATTITUDE. @Master have you not heard all these things about clay?

Brock is 100% right, George Plimpton went into that in his book "Shadow Box", which is a great read for any boxing fan.

I have read Ali's book where he learnt many positive skills training with Moore and he always had a lot of respect for him.

[brocktonblockbust]

Master sometimes dude you have to face things even when they don't have a nice "positive" candy-coated facade. Are we saying Ali was the Devil? HELL NO!!! (even though he said some of US were the Devil!) But--------- the guy was a PRICK to alot of people for quite a long time. Quite alot of his "own" people as well. Which doesn't JIVE with his "saintly" wanna-be persona.

"I'm GOD! I'm GOD! You must bow to ME! Muhammad Ali is GOD!"

JOE FRAZIER: "WELL, GOD, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE GETTING YOUR ASS KICKED TONIGHT!"


MOOOMOOOOOMOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOO-HAHAHA

Smokin' Joe Frazier, a decent man indeed.
frazier.jpg

[Master]

I never said he was a saint I just said he is the best heavyweight champion there ever will be.

[Dark Lord Al]

I never said he was a saint I just said he is the best heavyweight champion there ever will be.

See your love of Clay blinds you , that is a ridiculous statement.
All athletic achievements have improved over time , in boxing its the same.
Unlike SRR , Ali couldn't fight inside , wasn't a big puncher , so logic applies that he wouldn't have been able to overcome a guy who is all those things and 17stone+ and 6'5+.

[Beanz]

Master sometimes dude you have to face things even when they don't have a nice "positive" candy-coated facade. Are we saying Ali was the Devil? HELL NO!!! (even though he said some of US were the Devil!) But--------- the guy was a PRICK to alot of people for quite a long time. Quite alot of his "own" people as well. Which doesn't JIVE with his "saintly" wanna-be persona.

"I'm GOD! I'm GOD! You must bow to ME! Muhammad Ali is GOD!"

JOE FRAZIER: "WELL, GOD, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE GETTING YOUR ASS KICKED TONIGHT!"


MOOOMOOOOOMOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOO-HAHAHA

Smokin' Joe Frazier, a decent man indeed.
frazier.jpg

If you really think that Master is anything at all like that then you don't really know him at all. The whole argument mounted by yourself, Bill and the anti-Ali brigade is quite laughable. First you have to create a false premise which you all seem to have done quite successfully, almost enough to delude yourselves.

That premise is that anyone not subscribing to your view is either simple, naive or just plain not sophisticated enough to understand that Ali was not the great human being and boxer he purported to be, and most importantly certainly not the greatest.

It's weird but it's the kind of argument that PC people use when they don't think other people can use common sense or judgement when talking about or to people different to themselves. The point is that most if not all of the posters here on what is after all a boxing forum are more than aware of Ali's racism, intolerance, and all the flaws in both his boxing ability and personality. We just don't feel the need to go on and on about it endlessly. Now before you pull out the old chestnut about not having to partake in a thread when you find that it is just treading over old ground, indulge me for one moment and imagine what that argument sounds surprisingly familiar to ? The same PC naysayers who will not tolerate an alternative opinion or a word that they deem offensive being used.

The one disturbing recurring theme in all these arguments for me personally is the insistence in using the name Clay. Yes Ali was an offensive, arrogant man who treated fighters like Joe Frazier (a fighter and man I had huge respect for) like crap, but he is currently a suffering old man nearing the end of his life. He chose to change his name and that was a decision that was his to make. However deluded and hoodwinked he was by a others HE changed it. What gives someone else the right to call him by a name that he discarded and found oppressive ? I know that you are not a racist but for people who do not know you, that is exactly what it comes across as. Like an insistence that he has no right to even choose what to call himself. He may have no right to call himself the greatest, and certainly not to call himself God, but that now seems to have turned for many into not even enough rights to call himself Muhammad Ali. A name shared with thousands if not more and yet one that everyone now knows, refers to him.

The man had a steely minded determination and bravery that elevated his less than perfect boxing ability and allowed him to survive countless wars. He didn't just turn up he understood that entertainment was a huge part of the fight game and he mastered that aspect to make sure his name went down in history. Not his fathers name or the simple Christian name Clay. The name Muhammad Ali.

[Bill Paxtom]

I have always stated that,

Cassius Clay was neither 'a coward' or 'yellow'.

What I did state, was that he was 'a fraud'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Where is that Cassius Clay when you need him."

Sean Yseult

[Dark Lord Al]

Clay was an entertainer as all boxers are , and as with all other boxers people like some and dislike others. I am sure if you posted a thread about Cotto for an example , lots will love him lots will respect him and some will dislike him.
I personally do not like Clay and don't think he was the Greatest boxer of all time , however it is evident some here disagree, so lets just finish by saying he was a boxer who entertained , love him or hate him.

[Bill Paxtom]

Clay was an entertainer as all boxers are , and as with all other boxers people like some and dislike others. I am sure if you posted a thread about Cotto for an example , lots will love him lots will respect him and some will dislike him.
I personally do not like Clay and don't think he was the Greatest boxer of all time , however it is evident some here disagree, so lets just finish by saying he was a boxer who entertained , love him or hate him.

Good Stuff,

Cassius Clay was an entertainer for sure. But he stole is 'act' from >

Gorgeous George

"Cassius, try to be the biggest 'Cock-Sucker' out there. People will pay 'big money' to see somebody
shut your mouth. The public loves to see a 'Cock-Sucker' get clocked."

True Story > They met in the Summer of 1961, on a Live Radio Broadcast.

[Master]

Stole, borrowed or improved are all the same thing.

[Dark Lord Al]

Fake name fake act , you couldn't make this up.

[Bill Paxtom]

Stole, borrowed or improved are all the same thing.

No Way,

Once a Thief, always a Thief.
------------------------------------------------------------------

"Talk about a 'thief'. My best friend {Elizabeth Taylor} was 'Fucking' my husband {Eddie Fisher}
in my own bed. Right here in this bed."

"Once a 'fucking thief', always a 'fucking thief'. That's the way I see it"

Debbie Reynolds