American confederate flag

[Kirkland Laing]

This was the actual Confederate flag used through the second half of the Confederacy. All that white is there for a reason. It was known as the white man's flag. Here's what the guy who designed it had to say :

As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause." And then in a later editorial, he cheered the design as one that will "be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN's FLAG..........As a national emblem it is significant of our higher cause [,] the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity and barbarism.


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0to%22&f=false


Here's what the vice-president of the Confederacy on what it was all about :

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea [to that of the United States Constitution]; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

http://web.archive.org/web/201308221...rstone-speech/


Here's what one Confederate state had to say about why they seceeded :

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

Here's South Carolina:

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union


This “Confederately correct” orthodoxy that the South fought for independence, not slavery, rankled a few southern realists, including the editors of the Richmond-based Southern Punch in 1864: ” ‘The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.”
After the war, a few ex-Confederates expressed similar disgust with the insistence that defense of slavery had not been the cause of the war. Confederate veteran Ed Baxter unashamedly told a reunion in 1889: “In a word, the South determined to fight for her property right in slaves; and in order to do so, it was necessary for her resist the change which the Abolitionists proposed to make under the Constitution of the United States as construed by them. . . Upon this issue the South went to war, I repeat that the people of the South had the right to fight for their property”. . . . Famed Confederate partisan leader Colonel John S. Mosby was equally forthright. “I’ve always understood that we went to war on account of the thing we quarreled with the North about,” he wrote a former comrade in 1894. “I’ve never heard of any other cause than slavery.”
Mosby, [South Carolina politician Robert Barnwell] Rhett, [Confederate President] Davis, [Vice President Alexander] Stephens, and other Confederates had no difficulty conceding what their descendants go to enormous lengths to deny: that the raison d’être of the Confederacy was the defense of slavery. It follows that, as the paramount symbol of the Confederate nation and as the flag of the armies that kept the nation alive, the St. Andrew’s cross is inherently associated with slavery. This conclusion is valid whether or not secession was constitutional. It is valid whether or not most southern soldiers consciously fought to preserve slavery. It is valid even though racism and segregation prevailed among nineteenth-century white northerners.


How people convince themselves that the Confederate flag represents freedom, not slavery - The Washington Post




And Confederate states actually opposed states' rights, that is the right of northern states not to oppose slavery.

[walrus]

Well, once again you twisted it at the end with the state's right thing. Robert e Lee stuck with the Confederation as his state went so. Those soldiers were more loyal to the states and opposed a powerful central government thus wanting to form a confederate. We now what the flag meant during the war but the right guys won, imo and I look at the flag today as part of America's history, for better or worse. I see it as a tribute to all the young soldiers who died in the field, the ones who didn't write those words you quoted but rather were sent into battle by those guys. Slavery was an issue in the civil war, but most of the young guys, many teenagers who died on the field of battle were fighting for a belief that encompassed much more than the own slaves, they couldn't afford slaves anyway. The seeds of the civil war were planted long before Lincoln took office. Can I have a graph please brother.

[El Kabong]

Once again Kirkland you proudly show your profound ignorance.



THAT is the Confederate flag

[Kirkland Laing]

Flags of the Confederacy

[El Kabong]

Thanks for supporting my case Kirkland, how nice of you

[Kirkland Laing]

Well, once again you twisted it at the end with the state's right thing. Robert e Lee stuck with the Confederation as his state went so. Those soldiers were more loyal to the states and opposed a powerful central government thus wanting to form a confederate. We now what the flag meant during the war but the right guys won, imo and I look at the flag today as part of America's history, for better or worse. I see it as a tribute to all the young soldiers who died in the field, the ones who didn't write those words you quoted but rather were sent into battle by those guys. Slavery was an issue in the civil war, but most of the young guys, many teenagers who died on the field of battle were fighting for a belief that encompassed much more than the own slaves, they couldn't afford slaves anyway. The seeds of the civil war were planted long before Lincoln took office. Can I have a graph please brother.

I'm just quoting you what the actual leaders of the Confederacy had to say about why they started the war at the actual time. They all seem to think it was about slavery so I'm going to go with the guys who were there.

As for whether Confederate soldiers had any material interest in slavery. Slavery was the engine that powered the southern economy. It's like mining in Kentucky or businesses around a huge US military base. If the mine or the base closes then all the people that worked there lose their jobs and all the people who worked for the businesses where they spent their money go out of business too. So they were all fighting for their livelihoods and when they lost the south became impoverished for generations.

As those people passed through the trade, representing something close to half a billion dollars in property, they spread wealth wherever they went. Much of the capital that funded the traders' speculations had been borrowed from banks and had to be repaid with interest, and all of it had to be moved through commission-taking factorage houses and bills of exchange back and forth between the eastern seaboard and the emerging Southwest.
And the slaves in whose bodies that money congealed as it moved south had to be transported, housed, clothed, fed, and cared for during the one to three months it took to sell them. Some of them were insured in transit, some few others covered by life insurance. Their sales had to be notarized and their sellers taxed. Those hundreds of thousands of people were revenue to the cities and states where they were sold, and profits in the pockets of landlords, provisioners, physicians, and insurance agents long before they were sold. The most recent estimate of the size of this ancillary economy is 13.5 percent of the price per person-tens of millions of dollars over the course of the antebellum period.

The south still hasn't recovered economically from losing its slaves.

[El Kabong]

I see that Amazon.com has banned the Confederate flag....good for them, I don't need to see that symbol of hate while I'm buying my Che Guavera t-shirt, Mao bust, and copy of Mein Kampf!

[El Kabong]

January 1, 1863 the Emancipation freed 100% of the slaves in Confederate states, in 1864 Confederate states themselves were abandoning slavery.....in 1865 the Union banned slavery.


But the "Civil" War was about slavery you say? It certainly wasn't because that 75% of the United States' taxes came from the Southern states.......certainly wasn't about THAT. I mean people NEVER fight over taxes........(Revolution, Whiskey Rebellion, Maryland Bond protest 1843, California Foreign miners tax resistance of 1850, John McErny's shadow government 1872-1879, San Elizaro Salt War, "Half-Breeds" in the Dakota's 1889...amongst many others)

[Kirkland Laing]

January 1, 1863 the Emancipation freed 100% of the slaves in Confederate states, in 1864 Confederate states themselves were abandoning slavery.....in 1865 the Union banned slavery.


But the "Civil" War was about slavery you say? It certainly wasn't because that 75% of the United States' taxes came from the Southern states.......certainly wasn't about THAT. I mean people NEVER fight over taxes........(Revolution, Whiskey Rebellion, Maryland Bond protest 1843, California Foreign miners tax resistance of 1850, John McErny's shadow government 1872-1879, San Elizaro Salt War, "Half-Breeds" in the Dakota's 1889...amongst many others)

There were still slaves in the south up until June 1865 as some slaveowners only let their slaves go free when the Union army turned up and enforced it.

Lyle, the states went to war to defend slavery. They issued proclamations stating why they went to war and they only mention slavery, nothing about taxes or anything else. It's there in their own words. And they had absolutely no intention of ending slavery -- again, in their own words they wanted it to last in perpetuity.

Taxes weren't actually an issue because southern lawmakers had actually written the tariff of 1857 which set the nations tax levels. The rates were lower for the south than at any time since 1806.

[El Kabong]

Alrighty


#1 Slaves states fought FOR the Union....were they self loathing slave states?

#2 Slave states exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation: Maryland, Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, Tennessee, and West Virginia. Why on Earth if slavery was such a blight on the nation AND reason for a horrible and destructive war, why would states be EXEMPTED from freeing slaves?

#3 Civil War 4/12/1861 to 6/22/1865....during which time period the Emancipation Proclamation occurred 1/1/1863...fighting continued...after the treaty was signed at Appomattox slavery was still in force. December 18, 1865 is when William H. Seward announced the adoption of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. So the Civil War started and ended before slavery was abolished.

[Beanflicker]

I see that Amazon.com has banned the Confederate flag....good for them, I don't need to see that symbol of hate while I'm buying my Che Guavera t-shirt, Mao bust, and copy of Mein Kampf!

Hmmm that's a pretty good point!

Che Guevera... what a shit head he was!

[El Kabong]

I see that Amazon.com has banned the Confederate flag....good for them, I don't need to see that symbol of hate while I'm buying my Che Guavera t-shirt, Mao bust, and copy of Mein Kampf!

Hmmm that's a pretty good point!

Che Guevera... what a shit head he was!

You can also buy swastika t-shirts, Stalin statuettes, books on eugenics, various serial killer knick knacks, and so on.....but THANK GOD that evil flag is gone

[TitoFan]

The U.S. has a flag, as does every other country in the world..... and the states have flags. Can't we leave it that and quit doing shit that is somehow offensive to other people? If you know it's going to be controversial and offensive to some.... why the f*ck do it? Don't we have enough real issues to deal with to also add this petty, unnecessary log to the fire?

I can see why Agent Smith wasn't too fond of humans in "The Matrix".

[walrus]

Well, once again you twisted it at the end with the state's right thing. Robert e Lee stuck with the Confederation as his state went so. Those soldiers were more loyal to the states and opposed a powerful central government thus wanting to form a confederate. We now what the flag meant during the war but the right guys won, imo and I look at the flag today as part of America's history, for better or worse. I see it as a tribute to all the young soldiers who died in the field, the ones who didn't write those words you quoted but rather were sent into battle by those guys. Slavery was an issue in the civil war, but most of the young guys, many teenagers who died on the field of battle were fighting for a belief that encompassed much more than the own slaves, they couldn't afford slaves anyway. The seeds of the civil war were planted long before Lincoln took office. Can I have a graph please brother.

I'm just quoting you what the actual leaders of the Confederacy had to say about why they started the war at the actual time. They all seem to think it was about slavery so I'm going to go with the guys who were there.

As for whether Confederate soldiers had any material interest in slavery. Slavery was the engine that powered the southern economy. It's like mining in Kentucky or businesses around a huge US military base. If the mine or the base closes then all the people that worked there lose their jobs and all the people who worked for the businesses where they spent their money go out of business too. So they were all fighting for their livelihoods and when they lost the south became impoverished for generations.

As those people passed through the trade, representing something close to half a billion dollars in property, they spread wealth wherever they went. Much of the capital that funded the traders' speculations had been borrowed from banks and had to be repaid with interest, and all of it had to be moved through commission-taking factorage houses and bills of exchange back and forth between the eastern seaboard and the emerging Southwest.
And the slaves in whose bodies that money congealed as it moved south had to be transported, housed, clothed, fed, and cared for during the one to three months it took to sell them. Some of them were insured in transit, some few others covered by life insurance. Their sales had to be notarized and their sellers taxed. Those hundreds of thousands of people were revenue to the cities and states where they were sold, and profits in the pockets of landlords, provisioners, physicians, and insurance agents long before they were sold. The most recent estimate of the size of this ancillary economy is 13.5 percent of the price per person-tens of millions of dollars over the course of the antebellum period.

The south still hasn't recovered economically from losing its slaves.

Prior to the war Jefferson Davis wanted slavery banned in the southern states. His main gripe was about the federal government telling the state's what they can and can not do.

[Andre]

This was the actual Confederate flag used through the second half of the Confederacy. All that white is there for a reason. It was known as the white man's flag. Here's what the guy who designed it had to say :

As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause." And then in a later editorial, he cheered the design as one that will "be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN's FLAG..........As a national emblem it is significant of our higher cause [,] the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity and barbarism.


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0to%22&f=false


Here's what the vice-president of the Confederacy on what it was all about :

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea [to that of the United States Constitution]; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

“Corner Stone” Speech | Teaching American History


Here's what one Confederate state had to say about why they seceeded :

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

Here's South Carolina:

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union


This “Confederately correct” orthodoxy that the South fought for independence, not slavery, rankled a few southern realists, including the editors of the Richmond-based Southern Punch in 1864: ” ‘The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.”
After the war, a few ex-Confederates expressed similar disgust with the insistence that defense of slavery had not been the cause of the war. Confederate veteran Ed Baxter unashamedly told a reunion in 1889: “In a word, the South determined to fight for her property right in slaves; and in order to do so, it was necessary for her resist the change which the Abolitionists proposed to make under the Constitution of the United States as construed by them. . . Upon this issue the South went to war, I repeat that the people of the South had the right to fight for their property”. . . . Famed Confederate partisan leader Colonel John S. Mosby was equally forthright. “I’ve always understood that we went to war on account of the thing we quarreled with the North about,” he wrote a former comrade in 1894. “I’ve never heard of any other cause than slavery.”
Mosby, [South Carolina politician Robert Barnwell] Rhett, [Confederate President] Davis, [Vice President Alexander] Stephens, and other Confederates had no difficulty conceding what their descendants go to enormous lengths to deny: that the raison d’être of the Confederacy was the defense of slavery. It follows that, as the paramount symbol of the Confederate nation and as the flag of the armies that kept the nation alive, the St. Andrew’s cross is inherently associated with slavery. This conclusion is valid whether or not secession was constitutional. It is valid whether or not most southern soldiers consciously fought to preserve slavery. It is valid even though racism and segregation prevailed among nineteenth-century white northerners.


How people convince themselves that the Confederate flag represents freedom, not slavery - The Washington Post




And Confederate states actually opposed states' rights, that is the right of northern states not to oppose slavery.

Interesting read, cheers.