Where do you rank Vasyl Lomachenko P4P?

[mikeeod]

P4P is subjective and different (in my opinion) than historical ranking. I rank P4P based on who I think would beat every other fighter if we could somehow magically shrink/grow them all to the same size while maintaining proportional speed, power, reflexes...etc. Historical ranking to me is based on resume' and accomplishment.

With that in mind, when I look at what Loma did to Walters, and what Rigo did to Donaire, I place them as my 1 and 2. Kov and Ward are tough as nails, great boxers, and worthy of P4P ranking, but neither would be able to handle what Loma Rigo do in the ring. Ward is a little more willing to grapple/make things ugly, but I don't think even that would matter due to Loma/Rigo footwork.

GGG and Crawford are impressive in their own way. GGG is an aggressive, technically sound boxer with scary power in both hands. He's great at cutting off the ring, but he has never faced the skills Loma/Rigo bring and think the would both have him walking into big shots for as long as the fight lasts. Crawford may be on par with both, but I haven't seen him in the ring with a fighter as good as Donaire/Walters (Gamboa was small and rusty).

Chocolatito is solid and looks to be a smaller version of GGG to me. Very aggressive, solid fundamentals, applies constant pressure and looks for the ko in every fight. I feel like he does have better movement/footwork than GGG, so I feel like he presents additional dimensions/concerns for other fighters and can see a solid case for ranking him above Loma/Rigo. That being said, I have him #3 on my list behind Rigo/Loma.

This brings me to my toughest dilemma: how to rank Loma/Rigo against each other. Hard to be unbiased in this one because we (fight fans) tend to rank/admire offensive fighters higher than more defensive fighters due to aesthetics. Think Julio Ceasar Chavez and Pernell Whitaker.

Loma is much more aesthetically pleasing and exciting in the ring, has great defense, and is able to shut down elite fighters' offense. Rigo is a freak of nature athletically, not as offensive minded or explosive, but likely better at shutting down and frustrating an opponent. These two are unbelievably skilled and talented, but if I have to pick between them I guess I will have to go with Loma due to his offensive capabilities and punch output. So... I place Loma at #1 right now.

[vidgil]

To me, P4P is not simply about who you think has the best skills, it's also about achievement.

Vasyl has achieved a lot in his short career. I imagine he's achieved more in 8 fights than anyone in boxing history. But I think he needs to win more big fights to achieve that #1 spot.

It's hard to rank him above a guy like Andre Ward, who has spent years beating the top contenders and just pulled off the victory of a life time over Kovalev. As much as I feel Kovalev won, it was a very close fight and Ward got the judges nod in the end, so the result must be respected.

[J_Undisputed]

A lot of very good points made, Gents...

Especially poignant is that its kind of hard to measure by accomplishments, being all the fighters started at different times with different levels of competition around them. Ward gets credit for the super six. How many fighters are presented with that kind of tournament opportunity, where your opponents are of the upper echelon in your division and are just lined up and brought to you with no haggling.

I also agree with Ron's point about how a fighter performs. So the spoiling costs ward some style points in my opinion. But also by that same token, GGG also loses points for getting punched in the face on purpose in order to walk down and corner the inflated brook for the sake of "big drama fight". Crawfords late round antics against postol also fall under this category, for me. Capable of better, committed to worse.

Chocolatito, seemed more tested in his last fight. As did Kovalev . Loma should have been but the axeman became the tin man but that's not Loma's fault.

So based the criteria of primarily skill, bringing honor to the sport (after all this is supposed to represent the best boxing has to offer) and then longevity at a high level and

1. Chocolatito (skills, all business and no douchey personas, etc. His time at the top beats Loma because hes been active. His careers on hold now to take care of his trainer --so we'll see what happens)
2. Lomanchecko (Skills abound-- can't say enough, was willing to pay an opponent from his own purse to get competition, is so far above his competition)
3. Golovkin (He has a lot of Skill, but doesn't always use it - The disparity in skill under the super skillful Rigo unfortunately is just a hair smaller than GGG's edge in activity over rigo)
4. Rigo - Serious skills and an improved style should have him in at number 3 he has the longevity edge over loma- but his Longevity is offset by his inactivity, and his fighting in obscurity when he does fight do to contract and money issues. He can leapfrog GGG if his activity catches up to his mouth.
5. Kovalev -Not as skillful as Gonzalez, Loma, Rigo or even GGG... but Just as active as GGG (unfortunately the gap between his and Rigos skillset in rigos favor is larger than the difference in their activity levels), Kovalev beats stiff competition, and has most of the belts and tried to get stevenson in the ring on multiple occasions - His unofficial victory over ward should have him ranked higher but that would be including the accomplishments/opportunity others may have not been privy to.
6. Ward (Fights his fight and had a good skillset - Spoiling costs him as we've seen with Dawson, he doesn't have to resort to it as much), has longevity (cut short by self imposed layoff), Looked rusty against brand; desperate against kovalev and cares more about his money and power than he does about the actual fights)

Honorable Mention: Crawford (Good skillset, but i'm not sure he's in the same class as the seemingly naturally gifted Gonzalez, Loma and Rigo. He's ready to leapfrog Ward if he can keep the glory hound inside him at bay and outclass good fighters the way he has. I believe size advantage has played a factor in how good he's looked thus far... which is why Molina is a good fight as many of molina's accomplishments have come off his ability to curt weight. Should be a skill fight...except molina may be a little shopworn) Just my two cents..

[iwng100]

P4P is subjective and different (in my opinion) than historical ranking. I rank P4P based on who I think would beat every other fighter if we could somehow magically shrink/grow them all to the same size while maintaining proportional speed, power, reflexes...etc. Historical ranking to me is based on resume' and accomplishment.

With that in mind, when I look at what Loma did to Walters, and what Rigo did to Donaire, I place them as my 1 and 2. Kov and Ward are tough as nails, great boxers, and worthy of P4P ranking, but neither would be able to handle what Loma Rigo do in the ring. Ward is a little more willing to grapple/make things ugly, but I don't think even that would matter due to Loma/Rigo footwork.

GGG and Crawford are impressive in their own way. GGG is an aggressive, technically sound boxer with scary power in both hands. He's great at cutting off the ring, but he has never faced the skills Loma/Rigo bring and think the would both have him walking into big shots for as long as the fight lasts. Crawford may be on par with both, but I haven't seen him in the ring with a fighter as good as Donaire/Walters (Gamboa was small and rusty).

Chocolatito is solid and looks to be a smaller version of GGG to me. Very aggressive, solid fundamentals, applies constant pressure and looks for the ko in every fight. I feel like he does have better movement/footwork than GGG, so I feel like he presents additional dimensions/concerns for other fighters and can see a solid case for ranking him above Loma/Rigo. That being said, I have him #3 on my list behind Rigo/Loma.

This brings me to my toughest dilemma: how to rank Loma/Rigo against each other. Hard to be unbiased in this one because we (fight fans) tend to rank/admire offensive fighters higher than more defensive fighters due to aesthetics. Think Julio Ceasar Chavez and Pernell Whitaker.

Loma is much more aesthetically pleasing and exciting in the ring, has great defense, and is able to shut down elite fighters' offense. Rigo is a freak of nature athletically, not as offensive minded or explosive, but likely better at shutting down and frustrating an opponent. These two are unbelievably skilled and talented, but if I have to pick between them I guess I will have to go with Loma due to his offensive capabilities and punch output. So... I place Loma at #1 right now.

I agree with everything you said.