Loma vs Pedraza, your thoughts?

[Alpha]

Great posts guys

With benefit of hindsight and even though I liked Walters I think the fact he's done absolutely nothing after his lone loss says something about how 'good' he may have been in actuality. He peaked and crashed in about 2 yrs time. Good win for Loma no doubt but on his record I'd rank Russell higher. What we're realizing is that you cannot have a Loma discussion without Garcia, and vice versa. A guys record can be picked apart but it has to come down to quality of opponent case by case for me not so much where they were ranked. Also saw mention of Linares and he imo has to be foremost on Lomas record. Sure he may have been sparked earlier in career but wasn't he more than willing and ready to go with Mikey prior to Loma but it was Mikey who opted to settle on a 4th division trinket rather than a substantive division threat. If he's quality enough for Mikey to think about he's certainly quality enough for Loma to share a ring with.

I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.

I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).

It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.

I think that Russell Jr is Loma’s best win. Russell is a good fighter who just isn’t as rated because of his inactivity. He is a very good fighter and Loma comfortably won the fight. No excuses whatsoever.

Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.

The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.

Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.

At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.

And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.


Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.

I think the singular thing that helped that was Broner beating DeMarco after he had beat Linares a couple yrs earlier. That and the sheer push and visibility of a Broner who after all was at 135 for hardly a minute. I mean The Ring also had Broner ranked what..5,6 p4p in the world and that for me summed up how the once bible of boxing had fallen. The Ring may still rank Thurman #1 but respectfully you, me, nearly everyone except Thurmans closest relatives know that doesn't pass the smell test. He is a man with a division passing him by. It's an entirely different issue but you don't get rewarded for not working your house. Be it injury or lawsuits or just jumping for more shiny objects etc the division stays in motion. That's on Mikey leaving even with 'special permission' and he can't have it both ways. All that aside..you have to give Mikey 100 percent respect for Salido at the point it happened. Salido from basically the point of debuting in the U.S has facing solid competition and crushed heavily hyped Juan Ma twice and always proved a tough nut to crack. I wanna say he was actually coming on a bit v Garcia until the broken nose and the fight being stopped. Didn't he also have a broke nose?

Can I just say (because I missed it before, and Fenster mentioned it) when I say argument, I mean debate, discussion was probably the better word to use.

Some nice points there Spicoli, lets take a look:

Most would have had Broner at #1 at 135 after the DeMarco fight. I'm sure we can all agree that he would have been ahead of Linares at the time, before rising in weight.

As I have mentioned, I P4P is just mythical and too subjective to put any stock in. For anyone that may have had Linares P4P heading into the Loma fight, that's fine, they are entitled to their opinion, but I could name a handful of guys I would have rated ahead.

The reason I brought up Thurman's inactivity was to point out inconsistence with inactivity. Thurman is allowed to remain rated by The Ring after almost the exact time (at this point) as Mikey was away from 135. Mikey was active, just at a higher weight and when asked he always stated he wanted to return to 135. Could I ask why he can't have it both ways? If he moves to 147 to Fight Spence, will you consider him a full time welter? Plus fighters in the old days moving up and down quite a bit, did you consider Armstrong a full time middleweight?

I agree Salido did look to be coming on, but who knows how much the injury had to play in that. To that point tho Mikey had dropped Salido several times and was dominating.

Lets hope they can make this fight, it is one of the current super fights that can be made among top P4P guys.

[Spicoli]

Great posts guys

With benefit of hindsight and even though I liked Walters I think the fact he's done absolutely nothing after his lone loss says something about how 'good' he may have been in actuality. He peaked and crashed in about 2 yrs time. Good win for Loma no doubt but on his record I'd rank Russell higher. What we're realizing is that you cannot have a Loma discussion without Garcia, and vice versa. A guys record can be picked apart but it has to come down to quality of opponent case by case for me not so much where they were ranked. Also saw mention of Linares and he imo has to be foremost on Lomas record. Sure he may have been sparked earlier in career but wasn't he more than willing and ready to go with Mikey prior to Loma but it was Mikey who opted to settle on a 4th division trinket rather than a substantive division threat. If he's quality enough for Mikey to think about he's certainly quality enough for Loma to share a ring with.

I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.

I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).

It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.

I think that Russell Jr is Loma’s best win. Russell is a good fighter who just isn’t as rated because of his inactivity. He is a very good fighter and Loma comfortably won the fight. No excuses whatsoever.

Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.

The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.

Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.

At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.

And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.


Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.

I think the singular thing that helped that was Broner beating DeMarco after he had beat Linares a couple yrs earlier. That and the sheer push and visibility of a Broner who after all was at 135 for hardly a minute. I mean The Ring also had Broner ranked what..5,6 p4p in the world and that for me summed up how the once bible of boxing had fallen. The Ring may still rank Thurman #1 but respectfully you, me, nearly everyone except Thurmans closest relatives know that doesn't pass the smell test. He is a man with a division passing him by. It's an entirely different issue but you don't get rewarded for not working your house. Be it injury or lawsuits or just jumping for more shiny objects etc the division stays in motion. That's on Mikey leaving even with 'special permission' and he can't have it both ways. All that aside..you have to give Mikey 100 percent respect for Salido at the point it happened. Salido from basically the point of debuting in the U.S has facing solid competition and crushed heavily hyped Juan Ma twice and always proved a tough nut to crack. I wanna say he was actually coming on a bit v Garcia until the broken nose and the fight being stopped. Didn't he also have a broke nose?

Can I just say (because I missed it before, and Fenster mentioned it) when I say argument, I mean debate, discussion was probably the better word to use.

Some nice points there Spicoli, lets take a look:

Most would have had Broner at #1 at 135 after the DeMarco fight. I'm sure we can all agree that he would have been ahead of Linares at the time, before rising in weight.

As I have mentioned, I P4P is just mythical and too subjective to put any stock in. For anyone that may have had Linares P4P heading into the Loma fight, that's fine, they are entitled to their opinion, but I could name a handful of guys I would have rated ahead.

The reason I brought up Thurman's inactivity was to point out inconsistence with inactivity. Thurman is allowed to remain rated by The Ring after almost the exact time (at this point) as Mikey was away from 135. Mikey was active, just at a higher weight and when asked he always stated he wanted to return to 135. Could I ask why he can't have it both ways? If he moves to 147 to Fight Spence, will you consider him a full time welter? Plus fighters in the old days moving up and down quite a bit, did you consider Armstrong a full time middleweight?

I agree Salido did look to be coming on, but who knows how much the injury had to play in that. To that point tho Mikey had dropped Salido several times and was dominating.

Lets hope they can make this fight, it is one of the current super fights that can be made among top P4P guys.

Totally, to much arguing in the world. Considering Linares was just emerging from his 4-3 run as a clay pigeon with all 3 coming via tko and Broner was in the short window of 135 I'd say yeh Broner made a case as #1. But it was a stopover for him is what I'm getting at and surely on career work at 135 Linares is the #1 operator between the two.


Agreed, I have always looked at p4p as very subjective and frankly a marketing tag in many cases. Broner being one . Of all discussions p4p is one that seems most scattered with no point by point definition. I think the Ring conflates a best fighter for the best in division at times. I remember Margo beating Cotto..all aftermath aside.. and the next issue he's top 10 p4p . A guy can top a guy in division but it definitely does not translate to 'top ten best boxer in the world'. Again, that's just based on visibility and marketing to me.

I don't think Thurman should be ranked and consistency is important. Not to over simplify it but I consider a guy 100 percent relevant to what they are doing and where they are doing it. We've made it worse now compared to the days of no 'jr' divisions and more so not having 1001 trinkets to jump at. Mikey and even previously mentioned Broner are two that are pretty erratic with the up and down. Likewise Broner had said he also wanted to return to 135 but I just believe on gauging a guy on what he does more so what he hopes or intends to do. Best laid plans often go awry and such. Mikey beats Lipinets and initially said he's keep the 140 strap didn't he but also intended to defend 135? You cannot hold two belts in different divisions. He was boasting about being a free agent and having options at 135-140-147 so he was frankly all over the place. Then he's handed a mandatory with new 140 belt, decides to drop it and return back to 135 but had already lost a much better event with Linares and opted for Easter in easily made match. It just doesn't seem like he has big picture vision and is now grasping, my words, at another easily made but woefully much harder and hard knock fight with Spence. It will to date be his premier big fight name but imo it will come at the price of a damaging loss. Did Armstrong ever fight at middleweight?

[Alpha]

Great posts guys

With benefit of hindsight and even though I liked Walters I think the fact he's done absolutely nothing after his lone loss says something about how 'good' he may have been in actuality. He peaked and crashed in about 2 yrs time. Good win for Loma no doubt but on his record I'd rank Russell higher. What we're realizing is that you cannot have a Loma discussion without Garcia, and vice versa. A guys record can be picked apart but it has to come down to quality of opponent case by case for me not so much where they were ranked. Also saw mention of Linares and he imo has to be foremost on Lomas record. Sure he may have been sparked earlier in career but wasn't he more than willing and ready to go with Mikey prior to Loma but it was Mikey who opted to settle on a 4th division trinket rather than a substantive division threat. If he's quality enough for Mikey to think about he's certainly quality enough for Loma to share a ring with.

I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.

I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).

It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.

I think that Russell Jr is Loma’s best win. Russell is a good fighter who just isn’t as rated because of his inactivity. He is a very good fighter and Loma comfortably won the fight. No excuses whatsoever.

Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.

The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.

Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.

At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.

And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.


Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.

I think the singular thing that helped that was Broner beating DeMarco after he had beat Linares a couple yrs earlier. That and the sheer push and visibility of a Broner who after all was at 135 for hardly a minute. I mean The Ring also had Broner ranked what..5,6 p4p in the world and that for me summed up how the once bible of boxing had fallen. The Ring may still rank Thurman #1 but respectfully you, me, nearly everyone except Thurmans closest relatives know that doesn't pass the smell test. He is a man with a division passing him by. It's an entirely different issue but you don't get rewarded for not working your house. Be it injury or lawsuits or just jumping for more shiny objects etc the division stays in motion. That's on Mikey leaving even with 'special permission' and he can't have it both ways. All that aside..you have to give Mikey 100 percent respect for Salido at the point it happened. Salido from basically the point of debuting in the U.S has facing solid competition and crushed heavily hyped Juan Ma twice and always proved a tough nut to crack. I wanna say he was actually coming on a bit v Garcia until the broken nose and the fight being stopped. Didn't he also have a broke nose?

Can I just say (because I missed it before, and Fenster mentioned it) when I say argument, I mean debate, discussion was probably the better word to use.

Some nice points there Spicoli, lets take a look:

Most would have had Broner at #1 at 135 after the DeMarco fight. I'm sure we can all agree that he would have been ahead of Linares at the time, before rising in weight.

As I have mentioned, I P4P is just mythical and too subjective to put any stock in. For anyone that may have had Linares P4P heading into the Loma fight, that's fine, they are entitled to their opinion, but I could name a handful of guys I would have rated ahead.

The reason I brought up Thurman's inactivity was to point out inconsistence with inactivity. Thurman is allowed to remain rated by The Ring after almost the exact time (at this point) as Mikey was away from 135. Mikey was active, just at a higher weight and when asked he always stated he wanted to return to 135. Could I ask why he can't have it both ways? If he moves to 147 to Fight Spence, will you consider him a full time welter? Plus fighters in the old days moving up and down quite a bit, did you consider Armstrong a full time middleweight?

I agree Salido did look to be coming on, but who knows how much the injury had to play in that. To that point tho Mikey had dropped Salido several times and was dominating.

Lets hope they can make this fight, it is one of the current super fights that can be made among top P4P guys.

Totally, to much arguing in the world. Considering Linares was just emerging from his 4-3 run as a clay pigeon with all 3 coming via tko and Broner was in the short window of 135 I'd say yeh Broner made a case as #1. But it was a stopover for him is what I'm getting at and surely on career work at 135 Linares is the #1 operator between the two.


Agreed, I have always looked at p4p as very subjective and frankly a marketing tag in many cases. Broner being one . Of all discussions p4p is one that seems most scattered with no point by point definition. I think the Ring conflates a best fighter for the best in division at times. I remember Margo beating Cotto..all aftermath aside.. and the next issue he's top 10 p4p . A guy can top a guy in division but it definitely does not translate to 'top ten best boxer in the world'. Again, that's just based on visibility and marketing to me.

I don't think Thurman should be ranked and consistency is important. Not to over simplify it but I consider a guy 100 percent relevant to what they are doing and where they are doing it. We've made it worse now compared to the days of no 'jr' divisions and more so not having 1001 trinkets to jump at. Mikey and even previously mentioned Broner are two that are pretty erratic with the up and down. Likewise Broner had said he also wanted to return to 135 but I just believe on gauging a guy on what he does more so what he hopes or intends to do. Best laid plans often go awry and such. Mikey beats Lipinets and initially said he's keep the 140 strap didn't he but also intended to defend 135? You cannot hold two belts in different divisions. He was boasting about being a free agent and having options at 135-140-147 so he was frankly all over the place. Then he's handed a mandatory with new 140 belt, decides to drop it and return back to 135 but had already lost a much better event with Linares and opted for Easter in easily made match. It just doesn't seem like he has big picture vision and is now grasping, my words, at another easily made but woefully much harder and hard knock fight with Spence. It will to date be his premier big fight name but imo it will come at the price of a damaging loss. Did Armstrong ever fight at middleweight?

Excellent post mate, I agree that based on work done at 135, Linares is ahead of Broner, for those that feel Linares was #1 at 135 when he fought Loma, I'm fine with that, personally I had Mikey #1, he still held the WBC title, hence the unification with Easter.

Broner jumped up to 147 for what ever reasons. Had he returned to 135 after the Maidana fight (something I doubt he could have done, and I don't remember that being his intention, I feel he still would have rated ahead of Linares.

Also I question what Linares did to be considered P4P, or the #1 lightweight? A 13 fight win streak sounds nice, but Mitchell, Crolla and Campbell were the best during that time. Sure Mikey didn't do much at 135 either, but he beat the guy I thought was arguably #2 in the division Zlaticanin, arguably #1, and a guy you could say Linares skipped for whatever reason.

I have said previously that we can't put all the blame on Mikey for the Linares fight not happening. 2 sides to every story and all. I also pointed out how hard Arum made it for GBP to get the fight done. Mikey had already spent time on the shelf trying to get away from Top Rank, so that also adds friction to any negotiations between the 2 camps.

[Spicoli]

Couldn't run with the quoted. Apparently 10356 characters too much . Hey thanks Alpha. You put in the work too. But seems like the ball keeps moving . I mean Linares was Mikeys mandatory #1 and for whatever it's worth he was Rings belt champion.

Honestly Broner went up because he's a fat slacker who has yet to win a major fight. Sure he's stubborn, works inside nice and takes a decent punch but he dropped trinkets on the scales and I cannot see him taking that hiding off of Maidaina, shrinking back down and stepping up to win over class like Linares. Lacking a sturdy chin as opposed to lacking dedication, work ethic and eating right hands like potato chips are two different things.

On p4p, again it's all subjective. I considered Linares one of the more well rounded and seasoned boxers going in the sport. Also now Zlaticanin ranked higher as well as Broner and Mikey ? I don't think Linares fails to do anything Zlaticanin had pulled off leading to him being crushed by Mikey. And from what I remember Linares was set to meet the mandatory but fractured a hand. Branded champ in recess, Z picks up vacant but Linares made the "Diamond" champ. More fees for the W.e B.e C.ollecting.

[Alpha]

Couldn't run with the quoted. Apparently 10356 characters too much . Hey thanks Alpha. You put in the work too. But seems like the ball keeps moving . I mean Linares was Mikeys mandatory #1 and for whatever it's worth he was Rings belt champion.

Honestly Broner went up because he's a fat slacker who has yet to win a major fight. Sure he's stubborn, works inside nice and takes a decent punch but he dropped trinkets on the scales and I cannot see him taking that hiding off of Maidaina, shrinking back down and stepping up to win over class like Linares. Lacking a sturdy chin as opposed to lacking dedication, work ethic and eating right hands like potato chips are two different things.

On p4p, again it's all subjective. I considered Linares one of the more well rounded and seasoned boxers going in the sport. Also now Zlaticanin ranked higher as well as Broner and Mikey ? I don't think Linares fails to do anything Zlaticanin had pulled off leading to him being crushed by Mikey. And from what I remember Linares was set to meet the mandatory but fractured a hand. Branded champ in recess, Z picks up vacant but Linares made the "Diamond" champ. More fees for the W.e B.e C.ollecting.

Broner was out of the 135 picture at the time, he moved up for an 'easy' title at 147 and the pipe dream of a Mayweather showdown.

I was mainly using him to show that had Broner remained disciplined and at 135 many would have had him over Linares. With Linares moving to 140 we may still get that fight.

I often wonder how some of these divisions would have looked with Valero present, but that's another topic.

Mikey turned down GBP initially due to them wanting a long term contract. When they returned without the conditions, Garcia had apparently gotten a better offer and Linares was happy to make good money facing Campbell. It's a shame but something we fans have come to expect.

I'm not saying that Zlaticanin was higher than Linares. But the Ring title was between 1 vs 3. With Zlaticanin at #2, with Linares' inactivity, some had Zlaticanin ahead.

Garcia vs Loma is one of the best fights that can currently be made, they need to try to put it together for next year, or it might go the way of Floyd/Pac.

[Master]

Henry Armstrong tried to win a title at a fourth weight. Unfortunately the middleweight title ended up as a draw.