Did RJJ Kill HBO Boxing?

[El Kabong]

RJJ didn't kill boxing on HBO

He was a prodigy, he fought great fighters in his era, he toyed with great fighters in his era, he won titles from middleweight up to a heavyweight title (and he could have done so earlier against Buster Douglas instead of Ruiz which he had planned on but wow Prime RJJ at heavyweight vs Evander Holyfield WHAAAAAAAT would have been crazy). At light heavyweight he ruled supreme and was untouchable until he came back down from heavyweight and from there his career sucks.

He missed some big fights, but hell half that wasn't his fault...Benn, Collins, Eubank...I don't think they wanted him. To some those fighters were more concerned with success in the UK rather than worldwide success. Ottke didn't fight outside of Germany, Michalczewski wanted the fight in Europe, Calzaghe wanted to fight in England, and for whatever reason he didn't even dip a toe in the cruiserweight division...Jirov, Toney II. He never got to fight Gerald McClellan who was injured or Watson who was injured.

Could RJJ have had those bigger fights...yeah I guess, but hell I can look at anyone's record and see where names are missing.


What killed boxing on HBO wasn't Roy at all it was a lack of star power (not great or good or fun to watch fighters, but true STARS), promoters, the rapid rise of UFC and their guerrilla promoting style, and the cards as a whole sucked whereas UFC has worked to build good cards first and superstars second. Boxing doesn't have the stars so now we focus on the cards or we should...and it ain't that other fighters shouldn't be stars like right damn now, but it's that boxing drags behind the time and fans wait until a boxer is finished to lavish them with praise and honors....it's screwy that way.



Also Max Kellerman is a douchebag....where's my old school boxing announcers? Papa, Bernstein, hell I'd take Larry fucking Merchant over Max Kellerman (and I was a dude calling for Kellerman to replace Merchant!!!!).....man how wrong I was. Max Kellerman is just God awful at calling a fight now...I dont' know if ESPN has got to him or Lampley has or what but holy shit he sucks now.

[walrus]

RJJ didn't kill boxing on HBO

He was a prodigy, he fought great fighters in his era, he toyed with great fighters in his era, he won titles from middleweight up to a heavyweight title (and he could have done so earlier against Buster Douglas instead of Ruiz which he had planned on but wow Prime RJJ at heavyweight vs Evander Holyfield WHAAAAAAAT would have been crazy). At light heavyweight he ruled supreme and was untouchable until he came back down from heavyweight and from there his career sucks.

He missed some big fights, but hell half that wasn't his fault...Benn, Collins, Eubank...I don't think they wanted him. To some those fighters were more concerned with success in the UK rather than worldwide success. Ottke didn't fight outside of Germany, Michalczewski wanted the fight in Europe, Calzaghe wanted to fight in England, and for whatever reason he didn't even dip a toe in the cruiserweight division...Jirov, Toney II. He never got to fight Gerald McClellan who was injured or Watson who was injured.

Could RJJ have had those bigger fights...yeah I guess, but hell I can look at anyone's record and see where names are missing.


What killed boxing on HBO wasn't Roy at all it was a lack of star power (not great or good or fun to watch fighters, but true STARS), promoters, the rapid rise of UFC and their guerrilla promoting style, and the cards as a whole sucked whereas UFC has worked to build good cards first and superstars second. Boxing doesn't have the stars so now we focus on the cards or we should...and it ain't that other fighters shouldn't be stars like right damn now, but it's that boxing drags behind the time and fans wait until a boxer is finished to lavish them with praise and honors....it's screwy that way.



Also Max Kellerman is a douchebag....where's my old school boxing announcers? Papa, Bernstein, hell I'd take Larry fucking Merchant over Max Kellerman (and I was a dude calling for Kellerman to replace Merchant!!!!).....man how wrong I was. Max Kellerman is just God awful at calling a fight now...I dont' know if ESPN has got to him or Lampley has or what but holy shit he sucks now.

Kellerman is a douche. IMO Steve farhoud on showtime is quite good but they only utilize him for scores

[El Kabong]

Kellerman is a douche. IMO Steve farhoud on showtime is quite good but they only utilize him for scores

Farhoud is solid!

Hell look and listen to Mike Goldberg and Joe Rogan or whoever else they have....they hardly ever bash fighters or a fight, they talk strategy, they don't pick a side and cheer, they call/called it pretty straight....where is that in boxing? Is there nobody that does that.


Tessitore is great about that, Teddy Atlas is a classic color commentator HE gives the opinions, he breaks down the strategy, Tessy calls the match and asks some digging questions to Teddy, they do great. Teddy could work on his analogies, but he's better than anyone HBO has.

[J_Undisputed]

What killed boxing on hbo was that they didn't have the stamina to keep scouting. They had previous looked for young up and coming talent (bojado, ricardo williams) to fill their ranks later on and they just stopped and just started renting themselves to big fights for guaranteed money. A couple of events I would link this too:

The departure of ross greenburg to showtime after 33 years. Hes probably someone responsible for the groundwork that showtimes operating on now.

The wane of the heavyweight division and the onset of fighters trying to win Olympic style fights. When stuff started getting boring is around the same time that HBO refused to pay fighters to televise boring fights/styles. The Klitchskos, Ward and Rigondeaux are people i remember being particularly boring.

And the aforementioned rise of homegrown programming

[mikeeod]

i think about how HBO conducted business during its heyday, and remember the business model being elite fighters signed to exclusive, long term contracts. It worked when you had a sweet pea Whitaker who moves up to 140 after cleaning out 135 and white washing the #2 fighter (Pineda), before moving up again to face #3 p4p McGirt to force #1 p4p Chavez to fight him. It works when Oscar fights Sweet Pea, Ike Quartey, Tito, Mosley, Vargas...etc., and his “easy” fights are against Miguel Angel Garcia, David Kamau, and Oba Carr.

That model broke when Roy was signed to a long contract and didn’t fight his topped perceived threats after James Toney until the Tarver fight. This is not to say Roy was solely to blame, or even wrong for his mindset and business savvy. This is just to point out the different perspective Roy brought and how that changed the game with how fighters viewed the risk of fighting consistent top notch competition.

As for some of the comments on bias and Roy fighting and toying with great comletition: get a grip. Some facts about Roy:
1. He never completely unified any division he was in (Darius was lineal champ and they never even fought).
2. The only p4p ranked fighter Roy ever beat (while they were ranked p4p) was Toney.
3. Roy is the only elite fighter I can remember who was boycotted for fighting sub par opposition. This isnt me being biased, this boycott was orchestrated by a number of fans who felt as a collective that Roy was ducking Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Nunn, Darius, Graciano, Jirov...etc.

[walrus]

Shit I blame Vladimir more than Roy. It used to be the heavyweights who turned on casual fans but clinchko turned everyone off.

[Ron Swanson]

i think about how HBO conducted business during its heyday, and remember the business model being elite fighters signed to exclusive, long term contracts. It worked when you had a sweet pea Whitaker who moves up to 140 after cleaning out 135 and white washing the #2 fighter (Pineda), before moving up again to face #3 p4p McGirt to force #1 p4p Chavez to fight him. It works when Oscar fights Sweet Pea, Ike Quartey, Tito, Mosley, Vargas...etc., and his “easy” fights are against Miguel Angel Garcia, David Kamau, and Oba Carr.

That model broke when Roy was signed to a long contract and didn’t fight his topped perceived threats after James Toney until the Tarver fight. This is not to say Roy was solely to blame, or even wrong for his mindset and business savvy. This is just to point out the different perspective Roy brought and how that changed the game with how fighters viewed the risk of fighting consistent top notch competition.

As for some of the comments on bias and Roy fighting and toying with great comletition: get a grip. Some facts about Roy:
1. He never completely unified any division he was in (Darius was lineal champ and they never even fought).
2. The only p4p ranked fighter Roy ever beat (while they were ranked p4p) was Toney.
3. Roy is the only elite fighter I can remember who was boycotted for fighting sub par opposition. This isnt me being biased, this boycott was orchestrated by a number of fans who felt as a collective that Roy was ducking Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Nunn, Darius, Graciano, Jirov...etc.

So it’s Roy’s fault fans are stupid? Who cares what P4P rankings say, BHop was great long before people knew it. He was great when Roy fought him, regardless of ignorance.

Roy never said he wouldn’t fight his subordinates, he said he needed to be paid accordingly. Everyone should have been chasing Roy, anyone that wasn’t desperate to fight the top guy is at fault. The guy in the lead doesn’t chase those behind him.

Lots of people hate Roy because he was so damn good. They invent nonsense like saying BHop was better because he was good longer, it’s gibberish because he was never as good. That’s how you tell how good someone is, by how good they are. Jirov, Jirov, we’re really talking about Jirov hahahaha

Roy Jones is the most talented fighter any of us has ever seen live, by FAR. Appreciate it

[p4pking]

How would Roy singlehandedly have had so much as a role in it? He disappeared from the upper echelon of the sport 15 years ago... HBO has had plenty of top fighters and shown plenty of top cards since then, but they were slowly phasing boxing out for ages. I don’t know how theyre doing overall, but as was said they’ve always had far more lucrative programming.

[mikeeod]

i think about how HBO conducted business during its heyday, and remember the business model being elite fighters signed to exclusive, long term contracts. It worked when you had a sweet pea Whitaker who moves up to 140 after cleaning out 135 and white washing the #2 fighter (Pineda), before moving up again to face #3 p4p McGirt to force #1 p4p Chavez to fight him. It works when Oscar fights Sweet Pea, Ike Quartey, Tito, Mosley, Vargas...etc., and his “easy” fights are against Miguel Angel Garcia, David Kamau, and Oba Carr.

That model broke when Roy was signed to a long contract and didn’t fight his topped perceived threats after James Toney until the Tarver fight. This is not to say Roy was solely to blame, or even wrong for his mindset and business savvy. This is just to point out the different perspective Roy brought and how that changed the game with how fighters viewed the risk of fighting consistent top notch competition.

As for some of the comments on bias and Roy fighting and toying with great comletition: get a grip. Some facts about Roy:
1. He never completely unified any division he was in (Darius was lineal champ and they never even fought).
2. The only p4p ranked fighter Roy ever beat (while they were ranked p4p) was Toney.
3. Roy is the only elite fighter I can remember who was boycotted for fighting sub par opposition. This isnt me being biased, this boycott was orchestrated by a number of fans who felt as a collective that Roy was ducking Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Nunn, Darius, Graciano, Jirov...etc.

So it’s Roy’s fault fans are stupid? Who cares what P4P rankings say, BHop was great long before people knew it. He was great when Roy fought him, regardless of ignorance.

Roy never said he wouldn’t fight his subordinates, he said he needed to be paid accordingly. Everyone should have been chasing Roy, anyone that wasn’t desperate to fight the top guy is at fault. The guy in the lead doesn’t chase those behind him.

Lots of people hate Roy because he was so damn good. They invent nonsense like saying BHop was better because he was good longer, it’s gibberish because he was never as good. That’s how you tell how good someone is, by how good they are. Jirov, Jirov, we’re really talking about Jirov hahahaha

Roy Jones is the most talented fighter any of us has ever seen live, by FAR. Appreciate it

Are fans “stupid” because they want to see competitive fights As for what p4p rankings say, it isn’t that people “care” as much as it is a way to gauge who the top fighters are at the the time. P4P rankings show top fighters in the sport at the time of the rankings- you may disagree with the order/placement, but there is no denying they are among the best in the sport.

The point was someone like Oscar fought Tito, Quartey, Sweet Pea, Moseley...etc., while they were in there prime and at their best (p4p ranked high at the time). Mosley fought Oscar, Winky, Floyd, and Margarito. Holyfield fought Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer...etc. BHop fought Tito, Winky, Tarver, Pavlik...etc., while they were ranked p4p. Roy fought Toney. Regardless of whose fault it was in your opinion, or should’ve chased who in your opinion...etc., the fact remains that you will be hard pressed to find another elite fighter who fought as weak competition during their prime years.

As for me “hating” Roy, you lose all credibility when I say he was an amazing fighter and talent, as well as an ATG and your response is that I hate him. You lose more credibility when you make your point about BHop not being considered better than Roy. Both guys were great in their own ways, and who you prefer is just that: personal preference. Valid cases can be made for both, however, and anyone who can’t see or admit that is irrationally biased.

[Hulk]

RJJ didn't kill boxing on HBOHe was a prodigy, he fought great fighters in his era, he toyed with great fighters in his era, he won titles from middleweight up to a heavyweight title (and he could have done so earlier against Buster Douglas instead of Ruiz which he had planned on but wow Prime RJJ at heavyweight vs Evander Holyfield WHAAAAAAAT would have been crazy). At light heavyweight he ruled supreme and was untouchable until he came back down from heavyweight and from there his career sucks.He missed some big fights, but hell half that wasn't his fault...Benn, Collins, Eubank...I don't think they wanted him. To some those fighters were more concerned with success in the UK rather than worldwide success. Ottke didn't fight outside of Germany, Michalczewski wanted the fight in Europe, Calzaghe wanted to fight in England, and for whatever reason he didn't even dip a toe in the cruiserweight division...Jirov, Toney II. He never got to fight Gerald McClellan who was injured or Watson who was injured.Could RJJ have had those bigger fights...yeah I guess, but hell I can look at anyone's record and see where names are missing.What killed boxing on HBO wasn't Roy at all it was a lack of star power (not great or good or fun to watch fighters, but true STARS), promoters, the rapid rise of UFC and their guerrilla promoting style, and the cards as a whole sucked whereas UFC has worked to build good cards first and superstars second. Boxing doesn't have the stars so now we focus on the cards or we should...and it ain't that other fighters shouldn't be stars like right damn now, but it's that boxing drags behind the time and fans wait until a boxer is finished to lavish them with praise and honors....it's screwy that way.Also Max Kellerman is a douchebag....where's my old school boxing announcers? Papa, Bernstein, hell I'd take Larry fucking Merchant over Max Kellerman (and I was a dude calling for Kellerman to replace Merchant!!!!).....man how wrong I was. Max Kellerman is just God awful at calling a fight now...I dont' know if ESPN has got to him or Lampley has or what but holy shit he sucks now.

Unfortunately, Max is also a libtard these days too.

[Master]

Missed opportunities abound as HBO exits boxing with a whimper



For 45 years, HBO has been the one constant in a boxing fan’s life. The premium cable network took a while to get rolling after it entered the boxing space by airing the 1973 heavyweight title match between Joe Frazier and George Foreman in Kingston, Jamaica, and it’s kind of chugged to an unnatural death over the last five or so years.

But for 35 of those 45 years, you couldn’t be a boxing fan without a subscription to HBO. It kept the sport alive, when network television turned its back on boxing, and when basic cable channels didn’t have the budget to obtain the rights to mega-fights.

The final episode of HBO’s once-iconic “World Championship Boxing,” franchise will be on Saturday in Atlantic City, when Dmitry Bivol defends the WBA light heavyweight title against Jean Pascal. There will be one more HBO show after Saturday, a “Boxing After Dark” card on Dec. 8, but HBO’s reputation was built on its WCB series, so in many ways, Saturday’s show is the end.

It’s this kind of show — a one-sided mismatch — that has pushed HBO to this point. Bivol is one of boxing’s best young fighters, and has big-time star potential. Instead of showcasing him in a compelling bout that will force him to display his many skills, HBO has green-lighted a long over-the-hill Pascal as the opponent.

Odds range as high as 20-1 in Bivol’s favor. If this was the Bivol of 2018 against the Pascal of, oh, 2010, maybe this would be a date you’d circle on the calendar. Pascal is long past his use-by date and it figures to be an easy win for Bivol.

Instead of this kind of dreck, HBO would have been far better producing a 90-minute, or two-hour, retrospective looking back at the last 45 years. HBO does plan to do a look back on its final show, on Dec. 8, but it won’t be a separate program and won’t go into the depth that it should.

This was an opportunity for HBO to pass the baton in a meaningful way. It’s a no-brainer to show highlights of the hundreds of incredible fights HBO broadcast in its nearly half-century in the boxing business, but it could and should have done so much more.

How about a show that convened experts to look at the state of boxing and assess where it is going? It could have examined what went wrong that led to boxing’s decline, how it has responded to the growth of MMA and what it needs to do in the future to regain some of its lost stature.

It could have dispatched its “Real Sports” team to examine boxer safety, and exposed holes in the system that need to be patched.

Certainly a countdown of, say, the 10 or 25 greatest fights in HBO history would have been merited.

But no, instead of any of that, “World Championship Boxing” goes out with a whimper, with a fight which has little competitive interest and without a nod to a sport that literally helped build the network.

Its final show will get next-to-no ratings. Fight-wise, it will go head-to-head with ESPN’s offering of Vasiliy Lomachenko against Jose Pedraza and UFC 231, which features an incredible main event between Max Holloway and Brian Ortega.

Boxing seems to be on an upswing. Top Rank’s super lightweight title fight last week between champion Maurice Hooker and challenger Alex Saucedo did shockingly well in the ratings. The bout started just before midnight ET, and averaged 950,000 viewers, peaking at just over a million.

In recent years, that’s the kind of bout that would have gotten an audience of maybe a half-million, likely less. Its lead-in was an NBA game between the Milwaukee Bucks and Chicago Bulls, which averaged 1.7 million viewers. But the boxing card maintained more than half its audience despite starting at 11:51 p.m. ET, and it fared well with men 18-49 and 12-34.

It shows there is an appetite for the sport. It needs to be promoted and marketed far better than it has been, but what has become abundantly clear over the last year or so is that A) boxing isn’t simply an old man’s sport; B) fans aren’t inherently turned off by boxing; and C) a compelling match will get, and retain, a considerable audience.

HBO made a business decision to leave the sport, and no one can quarrel with that.

But it owed the many fans who subscribed to the network for years only for its boxing coverage more on its way out the door. It could have put on a far better, more compelling fight, for starters, but it could have used its institutional knowledge of the boxing business and its great team of reporters to dig into where the sport has been, where it is and where it is heading.

Instead, we see up-front why boxing failed on HBO and why it is succeeding at rival Showtime: Showtime has a passion and a commitment to the sport from the top down that is missing at HBO. It’s hard to imagine that if Showtime Sports president Stephen Espinoza were forced to quit airing boxing, he’d try to slip away like a thief in the night instead of doing a grand send-off.

HBO was a boxing fan’s best friend for years — Who can forget Ali-Frazier III, Arguello-Pryor, Barrera-Morales, Leonard-Hearns, Tyson-Douglas and Gatti-Ward? — but its demise is the result of self-inflicted wounds.

P.T. Barnum is alleged to have once said “Always leave them wanting more,” but let’s be honest: HBO is going away because it chose to air bouts like Bivol-Pascal far too often over the last decade. Enough is enough and on Saturday, it will come to a merciful end.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/mis...202134315.html