Is the earth flat?

[TitoFan]

Well now you’re sounding like your old, calmer self. Good.

I’m glad you’re not trying to convince anyone and frankly, I’m not trying to convince you. My whole point has been that there is a better way to conduct an argument than saying… “I’m right and you’re wrong. My research is the only one that counts, and the rest of you are sheep for following what you’ve been taught.” It starts things off on the wrong foot. The fact of the matter is no… neither nor I have ever been to space, and cannot say firsthand we’ve seen the shape of the Earth in person.

As for your experiments, you’ll claim they are binding and representative of what holds true for the entire Earth, and others will say there are flaws in those assumptions. That other factors, such as physics of scale, must be considered. But that’s neither here nor there. Not wanting to start another argument. Just saying that everyone’s opinions are valid, even ours.

Arguments of yours I can sympathize with? The one about water staying on a spherical surface… I can see where that would give people pause. Saying gravity holds the oceans to the surface doesn’t seem to impress everybody. But the rest of it? I tried explaining how air pressure is a gradient and gradually goes down as you go into space, to the point where it becomes a vacuum, which in itself is a gradient. You know… partial vacuums vs. perfect vacuums.

The luminaries, as you call them, is another area where I just see too many holes. You yourself struggle to explain how two celestial bodies can just gyrate in circles above the center of the Earth without any explanation as to the forces that keep them in those circling patterns. But again, since you don’t believe in gravity, a lot of things just fall by the wayside (pardon the pun). If the force keeping those bodies from flying off in linear fashion comes from the Earth itself, then where exactly does if come from? It’s easier for most of us to imagine a sphere where gravity comes from the center of said sphere, than a mysterious force equally distributed across a flat plane. Your previous post did nothing to either explain this, or convince anyone of its veracity.

Try to keep in mind that most doubters you’ll encounter are not just some yo-yo’s who can’t think for themselves. Some of us have technical backgrounds, and are as much into experimentation and facts as you are. You don’t have a monopoly on gray matter, Alpha.

I think you’re the one who’s taking things personally, and I don’t blame you. Claiming 9/11 was an inside job is one thing. No one is going to ridicule you for that. They may disagree vehemently… but they won’t ridicule you because no one has any proof to the contrary. Claiming the Earth is flat is quite another ball…. er….. slab of wax altogether.

[Alpha]

Well now you’re sounding like your old, calmer self. Good.

I’m glad you’re not trying to convince anyone and frankly, I’m not trying to convince you. My whole point has been that there is a better way to conduct an argument than saying… “I’m right and you’re wrong. My research is the only one that counts, and the rest of you are sheep for following what you’ve been taught.” It starts things off on the wrong foot. The fact of the matter is no… neither nor I have ever been to space, and cannot say firsthand we’ve seen the shape of the Earth in person.

As for your experiments, you’ll claim they are binding and representative of what holds true for the entire Earth, and others will say there are flaws in those assumptions. That other factors, such as physics of scale, must be considered. But that’s neither here nor there. Not wanting to start another argument. Just saying that everyone’s opinions are valid, even ours.

Arguments of yours I can sympathize with? The one about water staying on a spherical surface… I can see where that would give people pause. Saying gravity holds the oceans to the surface doesn’t seem to impress everybody. But the rest of it? I tried explaining how air pressure is a gradient and gradually goes down as you go into space, to the point where it becomes a vacuum, which in itself is a gradient. You know… partial vacuums vs. perfect vacuums.

The luminaries, as you call them, is another area where I just see too many holes. You yourself struggle to explain how two celestial bodies can just gyrate in circles above the center of the Earth without any explanation as to the forces that keep them in those circling patterns. But again, since you don’t believe in gravity, a lot of things just fall by the wayside (pardon the pun). If the force keeping those bodies from flying off in linear fashion comes from the Earth itself, then where exactly does if come from? It’s easier for most of us to imagine a sphere where gravity comes from the center of said sphere, than a mysterious force equally distributed across a flat plane. Your previous post did nothing to either explain this, or convince anyone of its veracity.

Try to keep in mind that most doubters you’ll encounter are not just some yo-yo’s who can’t think for themselves. Some of us have technical backgrounds, and are as much into experimentation and facts as you are. You don’t have a monopoly on gray matter, Alpha.

I think you’re the one who’s taking things personally, and I don’t blame you. Claiming 9/11 was an inside job is one thing. No one is going to ridicule you for that. They may disagree vehemently… but they won’t ridicule you because no one has any proof to the contrary. Claiming the Earth is flat is quite another ball…. er….. slab of wax altogether.

I have always been calm, just wanted to show that insults against each other are irrelevant. There are no emotions involved in this for me, in my opinion objective reality is not up for debate. But insulting intelligence, rather than attacking the argument is pointless. I have been at this for 3 years. And for the better, now actually understand how the heliocentric model works. Before getting into questioning the globe claims, I don't think I ever questioned it once, like most I guess. I've not trying to say I'm right and others are wrong, I'm saying that actual empirical natural scientific experiments prove things in this reality.

I suppose that when I say sheep or brainwashed, I am really referring to myself back then, not meaning others. I find it hard to believe how easily I was fooled by the propaganda and pseudoscience for so long, without every questioning the globe.

Anyone is free to say there are flaws in my experiments. That's what experiments are for. But if they are claiming they are wrong, then obviously I will expect a practical demonstration showing the opposite of my results. And the great thing about natural science is that everyone should be able to demonstrate, observe, test and repeat the same experiments, producing the same results. We are all scientists really.

So if someone claims water can conform to the exterior of a shape, I will expect a practical demonstration of that.

Again with gravity, we don't observe it anywhere in nature, and there is no practical demonstration that can be observed of mass attracting to mass.

You did try explaining air pressure, but again didn't explain how we can have that pressure without some sort of barrier. I'm not claiming a dome or anything, but I do know that we need some sort of container or surface to create pressure.

Also if the claim is that gravity (that we can't prove with a practical demonstration) is whats holding the atmosphere to the earth, then again I would expect a practical demonstration of this.

And also a practical demonstration of this gradient atmosphere, beside this claimed gradient vacuum, without any barrier. We know by the laws of thermal dynamics that hot will always go to cold, and a higher energy (pressure) will always go to a low energy (pressure).

If the claim is that the earth is moving, then again, a practical demonstration would be required to show this. This has never been done.

And if the claim is the the earth is curving, in the shape of a sphere, the we should be able to quantify and measure this.

So I hope you can see where a lot of this becomes belief and pseudoscience, rather than actual science.

You shouldn't have to believe in gravity, it should be able to be proven by a scientific experiment. I call them luminaries because they look more like balls of light to me through a telescope. Like I said we have never been up there, and can only rely on what we see for ourselves vs the agencies, who like those in the scientific community have a agenda to protect. It's their livelihood. I don't know what they are exactly, but claiming that gravity (again a force we can't observe in the natural world, or provide a practical demonstration for) doesn't prove what they are or why they do what they do. I ask myself if gravity is real then why doesn't the moon move fast on it's cycle when it's closest to the sun? Surely the Suns mass would be pulling it towards it, making it's speed increase. But again, looking at the sky doesn't give us anything to measure this claimed curvature of the globe.

I have never claimed to have a monopoly on gray matter, I have always encouraged others to do their own research and experiments. But like I have said with the sciences, only natural science uses empirical evidence, tangible, quantifiable substances. Formal sciences are languages, created by man to assist as a tool, and aren't real scientific experiments.

The scientific community should be jumping all over this. Isn't that what science is. Observing, testing, demonstrating, repeating. And it should be repeatable by everyone, not just 'their' peers. Instead they prefer to focus on the formal side of science, creating things like dark energy and dark matter, because, funnily enough 'gravity' only works in our solar system.

But take sometime, a few days, a couple of weeks, I've been at it 3 years and am still learning things. But I highly recommend researching how some of these things like gravity were proved. And see if you agree that it was done with actual scientific experiments, or just pseudoscience. Either way you'll learn more about the heliocentric model, that for some reason or another, most of us seem oblivious to, until the questions are presented to us.

I'll leave a vid below in case anyone is interested in gravity vs density:

[TitoFan]

You provide more questions than answers, Alpha. You see that, don’t you? Give me a practical demonstration of water adhering to a spherical shape. Give me a practical demonstration of gravity. Give me a practical demonstration of the heliocentric model of the Earth, Sun and Moon.

What about you? Give ME a demonstration of a celestial body circling above a flat plane without any explicable forces keeping it in such a rotation. If the Earth is flat, what is its shape? Please don’t tell me you don’t know or don’t care. Give me alternatives. A sphere is a sphere is a sphere. You can walk around it, sail around it, fly around it. Explain the geometry of the flat Earth. Explain why and what holds the Sun and Moon in their respective circles above the flat Earth. Explain how it’s night and day simultaneously in different parts of the Earth. I’m sorry, but the animations I’ve seen don’t quite cut it. At least with the heliocentric model, gravity explains everything. Gravity holds the atmosphere against the surface of the Earth. Gravity holds the oceans against the surface of the Earth. Gravity holds the Moon in orbit.

Demonstration of gravity? Sorry… fresh out. I can’t conjure up a mass of 5.9 x 10²⁴ kg in order to replicate the effects of gravity. Anything other than that, we’re fooling ourselves. Let’s go back to air pressure again, because you insist on the barrier. And I’m sorry, but the key here is gravity, which you don’t believe in. Gravity is the key to the whole show, I’m afraid. If you WERE to believe in gravity, I would tell you that because gravity holds the atmosphere to the surface of the Earth, the air pressure is greatest at sea level. As you go up in altitude, this pressure gradually decreases, due to the lesser quantity of air molecules present. At some point, you go from zero pressure and cross over into what is known as a partial vacuum, which as you go further into space, becomes a deeper, or stronger vacuum. Why don’t the air molecules in the pressured area drift or move to the lesser pressured area? There’s that dreaded G-word again….. gravity. The force of gravity overcomes the forces that would move the air from a higher pressure area to a lower pressure area. The container, barrier, whatever you want to call it? The surface of the Earth. That is the "wall" the air is pressed up against. I'm sorry... that's the best I can do.

Gravity’s the key to the whole thing. But you don’t believe in it. You believe objects fall to the ground because of density. Tell me… how dense is the Sun and the Moon? Shouldn’t they come crashing down to the surface of the Earth? I can’t think of much denser objects than the Sun, can you?

You see…. If you want to convince round Earthers that they’re wrong, you’ve got to have alternative truths to prove to them. You just can’t say water doesn’t conform to a sphere and expect to leave it at that. A round Earth model needs no “end”…. no “edge”. Again, you can go around it endlessly. If it’s flat, where does it end? That question cannot be left unanswered. Otherwise, you’re just questioning things without an alternative.

The circling of the Sun and Moon is a big deal here. The heliocentric model explains night and day. Flat Earthers models don’t. And if they attempt to, it’s shoddy and unbelievable.

[Alpha]

You provide more questions than answers, Alpha. You see that, don’t you? Give me a practical demonstration of water adhering to a spherical shape. Give me a practical demonstration of gravity. Give me a practical demonstration of the heliocentric model of the Earth, Sun and Moon.

What about you? Give ME a demonstration of a celestial body circling above a flat plane without any explicable forces keeping it in such a rotation. If the Earth is flat, what is its shape? Please don’t tell me you don’t know or don’t care. Give me alternatives. A sphere is a sphere is a sphere. You can walk around it, sail around it, fly around it. Explain the geometry of the flat Earth. Explain why and what holds the Sun and Moon in their respective circles above the flat Earth. Explain how it’s night and day simultaneously in different parts of the Earth. I’m sorry, but the animations I’ve seen don’t quite cut it. At least with the heliocentric model, gravity explains everything. Gravity holds the atmosphere against the surface of the Earth. Gravity holds the oceans against the surface of the Earth. Gravity holds the Moon in orbit.

Demonstration of gravity? Sorry… fresh out. I can’t conjure up a mass of 5.9 x 10²⁴ kg in order to replicate the effects of gravity. Anything other than that, we’re fooling ourselves. Let’s go back to air pressure again, because you insist on the barrier. And I’m sorry, but the key here is gravity, which you don’t believe in. Gravity is the key to the whole show, I’m afraid. If you WERE to believe in gravity, I would tell you that because gravity holds the atmosphere to the surface of the Earth, the air pressure is greatest at sea level. As you go up in altitude, this pressure gradually decreases, due to the lesser quantity of air molecules present. At some point, you go from zero pressure and cross over into what is known as a partial vacuum, which as you go further into space, becomes a deeper, or stronger vacuum. Why don’t the air molecules in the pressured area drift or move to the lesser pressured area? There’s that dreaded G-word again….. gravity. The force of gravity overcomes the forces that would move the air from a higher pressure area to a lower pressure area. The container, barrier, whatever you want to call it? The surface of the Earth. That is the "wall" the air is pressed up against. I'm sorry... that's the best I can do.

Gravity’s the key to the whole thing. But you don’t believe in it. You believe objects fall to the ground because of density. Tell me… how dense is the Sun and the Moon? Shouldn’t they come crashing down to the surface of the Earth? I can’t think of much denser objects than the Sun, can you?

You see…. If you want to convince round Earthers that they’re wrong, you’ve got to have alternative truths to prove to them. You just can’t say water doesn’t conform to a sphere and expect to leave it at that. A round Earth model needs no “end”…. no “edge”. Again, you can go around it endlessly. If it’s flat, where does it end? That question cannot be left unanswered. Otherwise, you’re just questioning things without an alternative.

The circling of the Sun and Moon is a big deal here. The heliocentric model explains night and day. Flat Earthers models don’t. And if they attempt to, it’s shoddy and unbelievable.

I am questioning the claims of the globe.

I know that the earth is demonstrably level, because of how the natural physics of water work.

I don't know the full dimensions of the earth, because we aren't free to explore it. If we were, I'd be on a plane tomorrow with my friends brother, who is a pilot and we'd be trying to fly directly over the south pole, around to the north pole and back to where we started. But we are restricted in where we can go. All sort of kept in this middle area. I posted a vid awhile back about Antarctica, that went into great detail about the difficulties to even attempt an expedition there.

Why do I need to provide alternatives? I am merely questioning the claims of the globe that have been taught to us. There are some who try to attempt maps and models, but to me it's irrelevant until we are actually allowed to explore this whole thing we are on.

The FE models and maps I have seen, may not work perfectly, possibly due to us not knowing the full dimensions. But in saying that, the heliocentric mode is not without flaws itself. And again it's irrelevant to me, because it doesn't give me anything measurable of the claimed curvature.

We need to believe that water can conform to the exterior of a shape, although the natural physics of water say otherwise.

We need to believe in gravity, although we have never observed it in the natural world, and there are no experiments that can be performed to demonstrate it making water conform to the exterior of a shape or holding a pressurized gas to a shape.

To create pressure you need a sealed container. Think of a gas cylinder or can of deodorant, a gas tank for example. You can't create the pressure with only 1 side. And it needs to be sealed or the gas will escape.

Even at it's lowest pressure the atmosphere will still have a higher energy than the negative of a vacuum. Again, I guess we just have to believe this, as there is no practical demonstration for this happening.

We have to believe the earth is moving, even though no experiment has ever proven that we are.

Seems like they want us to believe a lot. With nothing to actually prove these claims. Basically a religion.

You tell me how dense the Sun and Moon are, I've never been up there to be able to quantify them. They could just be lights of some sort in the sky.

We can't just go around the globe endlessly, as I mentioned, we can circumnavigate west to east and visa versa, but north to south and back around has never been done. And as I said, we a heavily restricted in our exploration. Circumnavigating from north pole to south pole and back around would be the first thing I would attempt, if we were allowed.

Who says there is an edge? Have you been there? You keep bringing it up, just another strawman. I've never been to an edge, but again, we are restrict on where we can go freely. Who's to say it's not an endless plane.

Again, I'm not try to convince anyone. I'm just denying the claims of a globe. Everyone should research and decide for themselves.

[walrus]

Just to clarify why you can’t get into Antarctica the Nazis still maintain a super base with in it which is occupied to this day. One of my reporters sent me the following


In 1938, the Nazis sent a large team of explorers - including scientists, military units and building crews on war ships and submarines - to the Queen Maud Land region of Antarctica. While mapping the area, they discovered a vast network of underground warm-water rivers and caves. One of these caves extended down as far as 20-30 miles and contained a large geothermal lake. The cave was explored and construction teams were sent in to build a city-sized base, dubbed Base 211 or New Berlin, that hosted the SS, the Thule Society, “serpent cults,” various Nazi occultists, the Illuminati, and other shadowy groups.

At some point, the Germans either discovered abandoned alien technology or made contact with extraterrestrial explorers (variously described as Greys or Reptilians). They learned or were taught how to replicate the alien technology, and used it to begin developing a number of super weapons including an advanced aircraft called an “antigravity-disk,” or flying saucer.

While many of these weapons were not ready for use in World War II, the base and the ability to manufacture these weapons might still exist and the Germans/aliens/some cult or secret society (depending on which conspiracy theorist you ask) will eventually launch a New World Order from it.

[TitoFan]

Just to clarify why you can’t get into Antarctica the Nazis still maintain a super base with in it which is occupied to this day. One of my reporters sent me the following


In 1938, the Nazis sent a large team of explorers - including scientists, military units and building crews on war ships and submarines - to the Queen Maud Land region of Antarctica. While mapping the area, they discovered a vast network of underground warm-water rivers and caves. One of these caves extended down as far as 20-30 miles and contained a large geothermal lake. The cave was explored and construction teams were sent in to build a city-sized base, dubbed Base 211 or New Berlin, that hosted the SS, the Thule Society, “serpent cults,” various Nazi occultists, the Illuminati, and other shadowy groups.

At some point, the Germans either discovered abandoned alien technology or made contact with extraterrestrial explorers (variously described as Greys or Reptilians). They learned or were taught how to replicate the alien technology, and used it to begin developing a number of super weapons including an advanced aircraft called an “antigravity-disk,” or flying saucer.

While many of these weapons were not ready for use in World War II, the base and the ability to manufacture these weapons might still exist and the Germans/aliens/some cult or secret society (depending on which conspiracy theorist you ask) will eventually launch a New World Order from it.

The Germans may have found that temple-like structure buried deep within the Antarctic ice, which means they most likely did encounter the extraterrestrial explorers, also knows as the Predators. Unfortunately, they also encountered the feared Aliens, which were a primitive, un-intelligent life form, but with a formidable anatomy which made them almost impervious to attack. The Predators considered them pests, as the Predators were highly developed in their technology, as you mentioned. It is unclear whether any of the Predators still remain in Antarctica, but it is thought that the Aliens were mostly wiped out by a powerful bomb.

[Master]

Just to clarify why you can’t get into Antarctica the Nazis still maintain a super base with in it which is occupied to this day. One of my reporters sent me the following


In 1938, the Nazis sent a large team of explorers - including scientists, military units and building crews on war ships and submarines - to the Queen Maud Land region of Antarctica. While mapping the area, they discovered a vast network of underground warm-water rivers and caves. One of these caves extended down as far as 20-30 miles and contained a large geothermal lake. The cave was explored and construction teams were sent in to build a city-sized base, dubbed Base 211 or New Berlin, that hosted the SS, the Thule Society, “serpent cults,” various Nazi occultists, the Illuminati, and other shadowy groups.

At some point, the Germans either discovered abandoned alien technology or made contact with extraterrestrial explorers (variously described as Greys or Reptilians). They learned or were taught how to replicate the alien technology, and used it to begin developing a number of super weapons including an advanced aircraft called an “antigravity-disk,” or flying saucer.

While many of these weapons were not ready for use in World War II, the base and the ability to manufacture these weapons might still exist and the Germans/aliens/some cult or secret society (depending on which conspiracy theorist you ask) will eventually launch a New World Order from it.

That was in an Ultimate marvel comic universe where all this happened. Captain America stopped it and won the war for the West.

[walrus]

Just to clarify why you can’t get into Antarctica the Nazis still maintain a super base with in it which is occupied to this day. One of my reporters sent me the following


In 1938, the Nazis sent a large team of explorers - including scientists, military units and building crews on war ships and submarines - to the Queen Maud Land region of Antarctica. While mapping the area, they discovered a vast network of underground warm-water rivers and caves. One of these caves extended down as far as 20-30 miles and contained a large geothermal lake. The cave was explored and construction teams were sent in to build a city-sized base, dubbed Base 211 or New Berlin, that hosted the SS, the Thule Society, “serpent cults,” various Nazi occultists, the Illuminati, and other shadowy groups.

At some point, the Germans either discovered abandoned alien technology or made contact with extraterrestrial explorers (variously described as Greys or Reptilians). They learned or were taught how to replicate the alien technology, and used it to begin developing a number of super weapons including an advanced aircraft called an “antigravity-disk,” or flying saucer.

While many of these weapons were not ready for use in World War II, the base and the ability to manufacture these weapons might still exist and the Germans/aliens/some cult or secret society (depending on which conspiracy theorist you ask) will eventually launch a New World Order from it.

That was in an Ultimate marvel comic universe where all this happened. Captain America stopped it and won the war for the West.

damn I missed that part

[TitoFan]

I don't know the full dimensions of the earth, because we aren't free to explore it. If we were, I'd be on a plane tomorrow with my friends brother, who is a pilot and we'd be trying to fly directly over the south pole, around to the north pole and back to where we started. But we are restricted in where we can go. All sort of kept in this middle area. I posted a vid awhile back about Antarctica, that went into great detail about the difficulties to even attempt an expedition there.

Why do you have to circle the globe north to south? A globe is a globe. You can circle it in an infinite number of ways, including around the equator. Also, airline pilots routinely fly over the North Pole on extremely long flights, such as say New York to Hong Kong. There are some FAA restrictions on flights over Antarctica, but it’s not like it hasn’t been done. The restrictions are mostly based on safety considerations. You believe there’s some sort of conspiracy going on there… that’s fine. We disagree.

We need to believe in gravity, although we have never observed it in the natural world, and there are no experiments that can be performed to demonstrate it making water conform to the exterior of a shape or holding a pressurized gas to a shape.

Must be comfortable in that easy chair asking for experiments that prove gravity. Again, I don’t happen to have a 5.9 x 10²⁴ mass in my back pocket with which to experiment. And just like lab experiments wanting to model tidal waves fall a wee bit short of the actual reality…. so would any experiment attempting to prove gravity with pitifully smaller scale models. Differences in scale are a reality, whether accepted by you or not.

To create pressure you need a sealed container. Think of a gas cylinder or can of deodorant, a gas tank for example. You can't create the pressure with only 1 side. And it needs to be sealed or the gas will escape.

Do you dive? If so, you must be aware of water pressure at depths. Tell me… what sort of “sealed container” is the ocean contained in, to be able to exert pressure? Oh…. the container theory only applies to atmospheric air? Ok. You repeatedly dismissed my perfectly clear and understandable explanation about gravity holding the atmosphere against the Earth’s surface, and continue clinging to the “container theory.” Ok.

Seems like they want us to believe a lot. With nothing to actually prove these claims. Basically a religion.

On this I’ll give you some leeway. A religion… yes. But so is the Flat Earthers theories. Too much “black magic”, as I’ve already shown you in previous posts. Nothing provable.

You tell me how dense the Sun and Moon are, I've never been up there to be able to quantify them.

Sun? 1.41 g/cm³
Moon… 3.34 g/cm³

Who says there is an edge? Have you been there? You keep bringing it up, just another strawman. I've never been to an edge, but again, we are restrict on where we can go freely. Who's to say it's not an endless plane.

Again with the "Strawman." It's the popular buzzword on the forum these days… cool. I keep bringing up “the edge” because it’s only natural to think that if we in fact live in a flat world, there must be some dimensions. An endless plane? I find that harder to swallow than your hated globe. But then again, there are tons of things we don’t fully understand. The limits of the universe. The beginning of time. Nothing in science has ever even come close to explaining any of those things. So in our arguing over the Earth, there is also that framework of questions neither of us has answers for.




So we're pretty clear that you're not trying to convince me, and I'm not trying to convince you. But certain things beg to be pointed out, such as the use of double standards when you demand everything be proven, while at the same time accepting you don't know why or how some Flat Earth theories would occur. Another thing to be pointed out which I've done repeatedly is explaining the realities of scale. If you ever watched old Godzilla movies, you'll note that the little cardboard skyscrapers didn't collapse the same way real skyscrapers would collapse.

[Alpha]

I don't know the full dimensions of the earth, because we aren't free to explore it. If we were, I'd be on a plane tomorrow with my friends brother, who is a pilot and we'd be trying to fly directly over the south pole, around to the north pole and back to where we started. But we are restricted in where we can go. All sort of kept in this middle area. I posted a vid awhile back about Antarctica, that went into great detail about the difficulties to even attempt an expedition there.

Why do you have to circle the globe north to south? A globe is a globe. You can circle it in an infinite number of ways, including around the equator. Also, airline pilots routinely fly over the North Pole on extremely long flights, such as say New York to Hong Kong. There are some FAA restrictions on flights over Antarctica, but it’s not like it hasn’t been done. The restrictions are mostly based on safety considerations. You believe there’s some sort of conspiracy going on there… that’s fine. We disagree.

We need to believe in gravity, although we have never observed it in the natural world, and there are no experiments that can be performed to demonstrate it making water conform to the exterior of a shape or holding a pressurized gas to a shape.

Must be comfortable in that easy chair asking for experiments that prove gravity. Again, I don’t happen to have a 5.9 x 10²⁴ mass in my back pocket with which to experiment. And just like lab experiments wanting to model tidal waves fall a wee bit short of the actual reality…. so would any experiment attempting to prove gravity with pitifully smaller scale models. Differences in scale are a reality, whether accepted by you or not.

To create pressure you need a sealed container. Think of a gas cylinder or can of deodorant, a gas tank for example. You can't create the pressure with only 1 side. And it needs to be sealed or the gas will escape.

Do you dive? If so, you must be aware of water pressure at depths. Tell me… what sort of “sealed container” is the ocean contained in, to be able to exert pressure? Oh…. the container theory only applies to atmospheric air? Ok. You repeatedly dismissed my perfectly clear and understandable explanation about gravity holding the atmosphere against the Earth’s surface, and continue clinging to the “container theory.” Ok.

Seems like they want us to believe a lot. With nothing to actually prove these claims. Basically a religion.

On this I’ll give you some leeway. A religion… yes. But so is the Flat Earthers theories. Too much “black magic”, as I’ve already shown you in previous posts. Nothing provable.

You tell me how dense the Sun and Moon are, I've never been up there to be able to quantify them.

Sun? 1.41 g/cm³
Moon… 3.34 g/cm³

Who says there is an edge? Have you been there? You keep bringing it up, just another strawman. I've never been to an edge, but again, we are restrict on where we can go freely. Who's to say it's not an endless plane.

Again with the "Strawman." It's the popular buzzword on the forum these days… cool. I keep bringing up “the edge” because it’s only natural to think that if we in fact live in a flat world, there must be some dimensions. An endless plane? I find that harder to swallow than your hated globe. But then again, there are tons of things we don’t fully understand. The limits of the universe. The beginning of time. Nothing in science has ever even come close to explaining any of those things. So in our arguing over the Earth, there is also that framework of questions neither of us has answers for.




So we're pretty clear that you're not trying to convince me, and I'm not trying to convince you. But certain things beg to be pointed out, such as the use of double standards when you demand everything be proven, while at the same time accepting you don't know why or how some Flat Earth theories would occur. Another thing to be pointed out which I've done repeatedly is explaining the realities of scale. If you ever watched old Godzilla movies, you'll note that the little cardboard skyscrapers didn't collapse the same way real skyscrapers would collapse.

We need to circumnavigate over the south/ north poles and back again to prove it can be done. We would need to stop at both poles and record the star trails to confirm our locations. It has never been done.

You can model tsunamis. And they have been modeling oceans for years.

We understand how water creates pressure. The pressure is equal on all sides, like how bubbles form in water. Are you claiming our atmosphere is now water (liquid)?

So you have been up there to quantify the sun and moon yourself? Don't think so.

You are right, there must be some dimension to what we're on, but at this stage you and I are restricted from exploring to truly find them out. I'm not claiming it is a endless plane, but there could potentially be more land they are hiding from us. Until we can truly explore, we will never know for sure.

I can prove how water works in this reality.

I can prove that gases need a container, and that if a higher pressure is next to a lower, then the higher pressure will move into the lower one.

There has been no experiment to prove the earths motion.

There is no measurable curvature.

It shouldn't really be that hard to prove the globe, should it?

I'll tell you what, if you do all the ground work, getting all the authorizations, and pay for everything needed for us to be able to attempt a north to south (and back around) circumnavigation, we will need to stop for a few days at both the north and south pole so we can record the star trails, so we can confirm our locations. I will pay for everything else. We can raffle of 3 to 4 other seats, you will make your money back ten fold with this. I will pay for our travel and fuel, food and rations, equipment, everything that we will need to complete the trip. All you need to do is get the authorizations completed for us to do be able to do it. Deal?

[TitoFan]

Let’s concentrate on the pressure issue for a minute. You do agree that air pressure decreases as you go up in altitude, correct? It is a gradient, is it not? So extrapolate whatever altitude you’ve been to even further. Does the air pressure not approach zero? We’re talking gauge pressure here, by the way. Now, part of your issue is that you don’t believe space is a vacuum. But….. you don’t believe in space anyway, right? So what does it matter? What matters is that you’ve got quantifiable, repeatable, indisputable evidence that air pressure decreases as you go up in altitude. Now….. explain THAT without using gravity as a factor, because you don’t believe in gravity either. What is the cause for there to be gradually decreasing air pressure as you go up in altitude? You see….. the mere topic of atmospheric air pressure flies in the face of your flat Earth theories.

“Are you claiming our atmosphere is now water (liquid)?” Are you now putting words in my mouth? That is a definite no-no in an intelligent, mature argument. Show me where I said our atmosphere was water, and I’ll apologize and become a Flat Earther myself. What I DO claim however, is that both air and water are fluids. Are you going to dispute that? I’m not an astronomer, but I do have certain knowledge that will enable me to detect when you’re just ad libbing nonsense without any scientific proof to back it up.

Here’s a direct quote from you: “I can prove that gases need a container, and that if a higher pressure is next to a lower, then the higher pressure will move into the lower one.” Ok so how does that work with the air pressure gradient present in the atmosphere? No black magic, no voodoo….. a straight, coherent answer please. We’ve already established there’s a gradient. So technically you’ve got “higher pressure next to lower pressure” all throughout the continuum of the atmosphere. So the 64 thousand dollar question is…. wait for it…. why on Earth is there a gradient at all? Why isn’t the air pressure the same all throughout the atmosphere? Isn’t that what air does when you open a higher pressure container to a lower pressure one? If you’re gonna present an argument Alpha, it’s got to be ironclad.

On the transpolar trip, hey I’m game. Not much of a flier… but why miss the opportunity of a lifetime to fly over both poles (oops… I’m sorry… I know you don’t like those terms).