The Environmental Thread

[Master]

I do not know if you know that we are having peaceful protesters over here causing some disruption. I have every sympathy for them. I think we all need to do more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47987891

[TitoFan]

I do not know if you know that we are having peaceful protesters over here causing some disruption. I have every sympathy for them. I think we all need to do more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47987891

If only because it brings the cause to the forefront of people's minds, peaceful protests are fine and even useful to a point. I think we all need to do more also. It's a matter of maintaining focus on the important issues. It's also important to not run and hide in the usual bunkers. People become defensive when talking about issues like this, because they feel their ideals and own beliefs are being somehow threatened or challenged. If only people would open their minds and remain objective when discussing things that could potentially affect not only all of us, but our children and grandchildren, we'd be more productive as a society. But every attempt at talking about this is met with political backlash and the usual nonsense.

[Gandalf]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

[Beanz]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

This is a very common response, and no disrespect, but this does not sound like your reasoned argument Miles, more like you you repeating something that protects the planets very richest who are responsible for 50% of lifestyle emissions and the very greedy valueless form of capitalism for the last 50 yrs. The facts simply do not support the blame the 3rd world excuse, which is a particularly morally redundant bit of blame shifting if we are going to be honest. Anything to deflect from those responsible having to make the real changes to make a difference. The environment can recover but many of us will have to live very different lives and stop the religious adherence to a system that values nothing but the hoarding of personal wealth. The 'less developed' world has more than enough resources to feed itself but for there is much here in the west that can be done to achieve the same results. The USA could feed more than 400 million people if they consumed what they currently export for example. Childless couples go on way more foreign holidays by plane, often run more environmentally damaging vehicles and generally live a more self centered and environmentally damaging lifestyle. It's a inconvenient fact because you don't get to blame what Trump would call 'shithole' countries and pretend that you can IQ test you way to salvation. You have been sold a crock of shite by a bunch of cunts who not only stole the pot of gold at the end but would not give a shit about stealing the Rainbow that led to it.

Much like the British and Americans being largely responsible for the nurturing and export of the Saudi based warped violent extremist version of Islam around the world, the promotion of an oil based economy to feed that monster is one of the reasons they continue to fight tooth and nail to maintain the ignorant belief system that most of the non-religious west slavishly follows like sheep without question.

We can't carry on living in denial.

[Beanz]

Over consumption.

[Gandalf]

Look at the population of the UK over the past 200 years alone. It's mental, then you expand it globally and it is insanity. The countries that produce massive amounts of pollution today are China and India and their populations are crazy. India and large parts of China are still poor, so not just a rich mans game. The US is strangely excessive and I can only assume the people pass wind a lot. As other countries 'develop' they too produce more pollution too. And then when such countries are overpopulated where do they seek to go? To the countries that produce the most emissions.

If you want people to use less plastic the best way is to have less people. It is common sense.

I will not change my lifestyle as I don't think it is an excessive one and certainly nothing compared to a person with half a dozen children or even a few children in the West. I shall eat beef, use my AC, and drive with Springsteen on the radio. I have no guilt about it really. I compromise by seldom using any heat in the winter as I don't feel the cold. You will never see me on a business class flight (or even many flights), or performing a world tour with the latest technology to hide my lack of tunes, or driving a formula one racing car, or live in Dubai with the AC cranked up while people use inside ski slopes. It's up to everyone else what they do, but I am not terribly greedy really. Only do what I need to do in the here and now. Almost monk like in some ways really.

[p4pking]

Look at the population of the UK over the past 200 years alone. It's mental, then you expand it globally and it is insanity. The countries that produce massive amounts of pollution today are China and India and their populations are crazy. India and large parts of China are still poor, so not just a rich mans game. The US is strangely excessive and I can only assume the people pass wind a lot. As other countries 'develop' they too produce more pollution too. And then when such countries are overpopulated where do they seek to go? To the countries that produce the most emissions.

If you want people to use less plastic the best way is to have less people. It is common sense.

I will not change my lifestyle as I don't think it is an excessive one and certainly nothing compared to a person with half a dozen children or even a few children in the West. I shall eat beef, use my AC, and drive with Springsteen on the radio. I have no guilt about it really. I compromise by seldom using any heat in the winter as I don't feel the cold. You will never see me on a business class flight (or even many flights), or performing a world tour with the latest technology to hide my lack of tunes, or driving a formula one racing car, or live in Dubai with the AC cranked up while people use inside ski slopes. It's up to everyone else what they do, but I am not terribly greedy really. Only do what I need to do in the here and now. Almost monk like in some ways really.

All thats left is either a vow of silence or lighting yourself on fire.

[Fenster]

The protesters in London are typical privileged cunts. Hypocrites. This gives them the chance to play the victim. "We're the last generation, we've had our future stolen" (sickening).

Every era in history has been littered with complete and utter cunts who believe everything begins and ends with them.

[TitoFan]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

This is a very common response, and no disrespect, but this does not sound like your reasoned argument Miles, more like you you repeating something that protects the planets very richest who are responsible for 50% of lifestyle emissions and the very greedy valueless form of capitalism for the last 50 yrs. The facts simply do not support the blame the 3rd world excuse, which is a particularly morally redundant bit of blame shifting if we are going to be honest. Anything to deflect from those responsible having to make the real changes to make a difference. The environment can recover but many of us will have to live very different lives and stop the religious adherence to a system that values nothing but the hoarding of personal wealth. The 'less developed' world has more than enough resources to feed itself but for there is much here in the west that can be done to achieve the same results. The USA could feed more than 400 million people if they consumed what they currently export for example. Childless couples go on way more foreign holidays by plane, often run more environmentally damaging vehicles and generally live a more self centered and environmentally damaging lifestyle. It's a inconvenient fact because you don't get to blame what Trump would call 'shithole' countries and pretend that you can IQ test you way to salvation. You have been sold a crock of shite by a bunch of cunts who not only stole the pot of gold at the end but would not give a shit about stealing the Rainbow that led to it.

Much like the British and Americans being largely responsible for the nurturing and export of the Saudi based warped violent extremist version of Islam around the world, the promotion of an oil based economy to feed that monster is one of the reasons they continue to fight tooth and nail to maintain the ignorant belief system that most of the non-religious west slavishly follows like sheep without question.

We can't carry on living in denial.

I'll chime in by saying we can't responsibly look after the planet's resources while ignoring the population explosion factor.

Here's the key. It's a global problem. Not solely the responsibility of the U.S. or any other superpower. Efforts must be made globally. At the same time we're developing new technologies to grow crops without depending on traditional methods... at the same time we're looking inward to our own developed countries to see how to better protect the environment... at the same time we're doing all this research for better planned cities and the like.... we also need to assign responsibilities to less developed countries and cultures as well. Just because let's say, China, previously lagged behind in industrialization and development, it doesn't mean they should be given carte blanche to catch up and even pass the rest of the world by..... without giving one iota to the environmental concerns of the world. It's like Harrison Ford said in his speech. We can put solar panels in every home in the U.S., and switch every car in the U.S. to electric power. It still doesn't alleviate the problem of deforestation in the Amazon basin, or the destruction of wetlands in other parts of the world.

You see... the problem is that we're at a certain stage in standard of living.... but other countries are desperately trying to catch up. The quintessential image of the indigenous tribal child playing with his smart phone in the village is the typical picture of the world's encroachment on the less developed. Once they taste that style of living, they're not going to be willing to listen to the importance of maintaining the jungles and rain forests.

So while saying overpopulation by itself may sound simplistic and copy-pasted.... it's a very real problem. Why not educate tribal peoples in Africa that having 15 children per family does no one any good? I see no harm in that. Times have changed. We must change with the times.

[SlimTrae]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?

[Gandalf]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?

People can take Viagra all they like. I just think the more people there are the more resources will be consumed and thus the environment will continue to suffer. There will come a tipping point from which we won't return. It won't be the end of the world and those with resources will be fine, but it will be serious suffering for billions. I am not sure it is worth it when you can just have less children. However, people won't change and thus the consequences will be what they will be.

[Beanz]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

[TitoFan]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

[Gandalf]

You are in denial, Beanz.

Maybe you will have to change, but me not so much. Africa will have to change. Families will have to change. And the environment will continue to corrode regardless as nothingof significance is being done to stop it.

BTW, if you take issue with any of my assertions don't just make things up. Back up what you say to prove me otherwise. Otherwise it looks like you cannot handle debate.

I feel no guilt or responsibility. It isn't me lacking empathy for the planet by being morally feckless.

[Gandalf]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

There are so many made up arguments that I will simply leave it at that. You say I try to make you look stupid, but you do that on your own. You live in fantasy land and you know it. 'All black families have been abandoned by their mothers' is a case in point. You twist and exaggerate and it is almost like you cannot help yourself. Stop making things up. See, you lie all the time. There is just so much wrong with your post that I refuse to even give you the air.