The Environmental Thread

[SlimTrae]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?

[Gandalf]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?

People can take Viagra all they like. I just think the more people there are the more resources will be consumed and thus the environment will continue to suffer. There will come a tipping point from which we won't return. It won't be the end of the world and those with resources will be fine, but it will be serious suffering for billions. I am not sure it is worth it when you can just have less children. However, people won't change and thus the consequences will be what they will be.

[Beanz]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

[TitoFan]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

[Master]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.

[Gandalf]

They cannot starve because Beanz said food is plentiful.

Actually they do starve and it is because the food is not plentiful and there is overpopulation. The logic if my child starved to death would be to not bother having children I know I cannot provide for. Your logic makes children sound like an insurance policy and something to be used. This is a selfish motivation.

The least able have the most children and people like Beanz suggest that this is okay and that everything else must change. Wrong. They must pay the price for own actions just like anyone else. Words are words, but the act of producing children you cannot raise is an action. An appalling action. They must stay where they are as they have no right to go anywhere else.

Actions do indeed have consequences and they must change. Europeans have changed, now it is Africa that needs to display the same attitudes. However, we all know what the EU and UN thinks should be the solution.

[TitoFan]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.

Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.

[Gandalf]

Well said, Tito. I am all for people becoming parents as long as they consider the implications of what they are doing and know they have the means to do so. I have plenty of friends who are parents and the most is two. I am hardly going around berating them as they are intelligent people who have the means of raising their children and do an excellent job. There is simply no justification for 6 or 7 children. I understand it in the animal kingdom. I had my cat operated on so she cannot have children (eugenics yay!), but if she was out there in nature she would be having dozens of babies. I like to think that human beings actually do have the ability to be conscious of their actions and to consider the impact they are having. Isn't that ability what separates us from being animals who just want to eat, sleep, and reproduce? It really is not difficult to not have dozen children and it really is selfish to do so if you have no resources. Having 10 more children does not automatically lead to 10 more available jobs. Mechanisation is taking away many of the most menial jobs and over time more and more people will become obsolete and yet there will be billions more people on a planet even more exploited. It simply cannot end well.

[Master]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.

Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.

I agree education, contraception and better choices should be made but pointing out that these are the reasons why it happens.

[Gandalf]

You are in denial, Beanz.

Maybe you will have to change, but me not so much. Africa will have to change. Families will have to change. And the environment will continue to corrode regardless as nothingof significance is being done to stop it.

BTW, if you take issue with any of my assertions don't just make things up. Back up what you say to prove me otherwise. Otherwise it looks like you cannot handle debate.

I feel no guilt or responsibility. It isn't me lacking empathy for the planet by being morally feckless.

[Gandalf]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

There are so many made up arguments that I will simply leave it at that. You say I try to make you look stupid, but you do that on your own. You live in fantasy land and you know it. 'All black families have been abandoned by their mothers' is a case in point. You twist and exaggerate and it is almost like you cannot help yourself. Stop making things up. See, you lie all the time. There is just so much wrong with your post that I refuse to even give you the air.

[SlimTrae]

Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.

So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?

People can take Viagra all they like. I just think the more people there are the more resources will be consumed and thus the environment will continue to suffer. There will come a tipping point from which we won't return. It won't be the end of the world and those with resources will be fine, but it will be serious suffering for billions. I am not sure it is worth it when you can just have less children. However, people won't change and thus the consequences will be what they will be.

Gotcha! Just thought with all those boners, leads to the act of babymaking!