Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today

[Kirkland Laing]

Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.

Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.

The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.

No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.

You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.

So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.

That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.

You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.

You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.

It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.

Before you get anywhere near the telly you have to have somebody back you and underwrite the costs of your training, pay your bills and so on. Being a promoter means you're investing a lot of money in novice pros, most of whom you'll lose money on. When you do get one who you actually make money with he's one punch away from losing you money again so it's entirely understandable that promoters are going to do everything they can to protect their fighters and maximise the amount of money they can make out of them. That is never going to change and precludes any chance of any kind of organisation of boxing other than what already exists. You're just not going to find a bunch of philanthropists out there who will invest time and money to create top fighters who will then make the fans the fights want to see and not worry about making money out of them. It's not going to happen.

[TitoFan]

Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.

Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.

The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.

No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.

You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.

So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.

That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.

You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.

You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.

It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.

Before you get anywhere near the telly you have to have somebody back you and underwrite the costs of your training, pay your bills and so on. Being a promoter means you're investing a lot of money in novice pros, most of whom you'll lose money on. When you do get one who you actually make money with he's one punch away from losing you money again so it's entirely understandable that promoters are going to do everything they can to protect their fighters and maximise the amount of money they can make out of them. That is never going to change and precludes any chance of any kind of organisation of boxing other than what already exists. You're just not going to find a bunch of philanthropists out there who will invest time and money to create top fighters who will then make the fans the fights want to see and not worry about making money out of them. It's not going to happen.

I appreciate you trying to paint promoters as these poor, risk-taking souls who sink their life savings into young pugs in the hopes that someday they'll make some money to put food on the table. But I assure you, we're no longer in the 1950's. Most promoters have plenty of money, and are not risking their livelihoods when they take on a promising fighter. You have a handful of former boxers who have made their millions and are now engaging in boxing promotions (DLH, PBF, Cotto... to name a few). You also have your old fogies who have already made their millions in boxing and are not hurting for money (Arum, for instance). Others have made their fortunes in other businesses and then choose to pursue boxing promotions. So you'll excuse me if I don't shed a tear for the plight of poor boxing promoters.

Also, let's dispense with the fallacy that promoters sink $$$$ into just any Joe, Dick and Harry that shows up on their doorstep. I'm pretty sure these guys who find good promoters are ones with actual promising futures, who have already shown a remarkable set of skills. So again... it's hard for me to feel sorry for promoters at this point.

Hey..... I get it that some of you get off on the economics of boxing, I really do. All the more power to you. You want to fill reams and reams of boxing threads with arguments over who makes more money than who..... and why Boxer X never got to face Boxer Y...... go for it. Let's just be honest and call a spade a spade. Boxing promoters are by and large a bunch of greedy bastards who'd rather risk huge fights not being made, rather than take 5% less than the rival promoter, just because that's the type of greedy bastards they are.

Another thing. Never fails to amaze me how good boxing fans are at disparaging one another (not you necessarily). "Mug fans"..... "fake arse fans"...... "casual fans"..... there is definitely no shortage of names for boxing fans to throw to one another. It's hilarious to me how fans are reduced to arguing about the financials of boxing, when all we really want to do is watch the fights we want to watch. And we're willing to pay good money for them! It's not like we're asking for them for free. Meanwhile, while we're reduced to arguing about contracts and who ducked who, because the big fights don't get made.... promoters are laughing their ass off because they have a fail-safe product which they can sell no matter how long it's been since its expiration date.

Finance is not my cup of tea. I do my personal finances and do pretty well, thanks very much. But for entertainment I like boxing. And again I couldn't give less of a flying one about any of the economics of the boxers and/or promoters.

[TitoFan]

Finally.... rules can be made. I don't care what anyone else says or thinks. You want to put together a multi-million dollar fight where you're going to be compensated hand over fist? You need to abide by these simple, non-stringent, very reasonable rules. We rule boxing... and we'll fine and sanction your ass if you don't comply. Saying something can't be done is the best and most surefire way to never having ANYTHING done.

[Fatboxingfan]

Where there s a will there's a way, hopefully camoters can make the fights we want. Without not making us wait. Didn't anyone really go for the story but Wilder camp held out a 50 mill carrot on a stick to AJ, who refused. Who can thumb that down, 50 mill? is that the kind of old-world promotion that we are missing, just throw the number out and make the fight happen? AJ they claimed was more hung up about the venue then the 50mill.

[Kirkland Laing]

Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.

Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.

The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.

No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.

You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.

So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.

That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.

You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.

You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.

It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.

Before you get anywhere near the telly you have to have somebody back you and underwrite the costs of your training, pay your bills and so on. Being a promoter means you're investing a lot of money in novice pros, most of whom you'll lose money on. When you do get one who you actually make money with he's one punch away from losing you money again so it's entirely understandable that promoters are going to do everything they can to protect their fighters and maximise the amount of money they can make out of them. That is never going to change and precludes any chance of any kind of organisation of boxing other than what already exists. You're just not going to find a bunch of philanthropists out there who will invest time and money to create top fighters who will then make the fans the fights want to see and not worry about making money out of them. It's not going to happen.

I appreciate you trying to paint promoters as these poor, risk-taking souls who sink their life savings into young pugs in the hopes that someday they'll make some money to put food on the table. But I assure you, we're no longer in the 1950's. Most promoters have plenty of money, and are not risking their livelihoods when they take on a promising fighter. You have a handful of former boxers who have made their millions and are now engaging in boxing promotions (DLH, PBF, Cotto... to name a few). You also have your old fogies who have already made their millions in boxing and are not hurting for money (Arum, for instance). Others have made their fortunes in other businesses and then choose to pursue boxing promotions. So you'll excuse me if I don't shed a tear for the plight of poor boxing promoters.

Also, let's dispense with the fallacy that promoters sink $$$$ into just any Joe, Dick and Harry that shows up on their doorstep. I'm pretty sure these guys who find good promoters are ones with actual promising futures, who have already shown a remarkable set of skills. So again... it's hard for me to feel sorry for promoters at this point.

Hey..... I get it that some of you get off on the economics of boxing, I really do. All the more power to you. You want to fill reams and reams of boxing threads with arguments over who makes more money than who..... and why Boxer X never got to face Boxer Y...... go for it. Let's just be honest and call a spade a spade. Boxing promoters are by and large a bunch of greedy bastards who'd rather risk huge fights not being made, rather than take 5% less than the rival promoter, just because that's the type of greedy bastards they are.

Another thing. Never fails to amaze me how good boxing fans are at disparaging one another (not you necessarily). "Mug fans"..... "fake arse fans"...... "casual fans"..... there is definitely no shortage of names for boxing fans to throw to one another. It's hilarious to me how fans are reduced to arguing about the financials of boxing, when all we really want to do is watch the fights we want to watch. And we're willing to pay good money for them! It's not like we're asking for them for free. Meanwhile, while we're reduced to arguing about contracts and who ducked who, because the big fights don't get made.... promoters are laughing their ass off because they have a fail-safe product which they can sell no matter how long it's been since its expiration date.

Finance is not my cup of tea. I do my personal finances and do pretty well, thanks very much. But for entertainment I like boxing. And again I couldn't give less of a flying one about any of the economics of the boxers and/or promoters.

Yeah they're not poor and they don't need the money mostly. They're businessmen and they run their promotional outfits like a business, a thing that has value. They're also humans who compete with other businessmen, develop rivalries with them and don't want to lose out to them. Both things that prevent the big fights being made at the drop of a hat. In the absence of a bunch of philanthropist perfect humans to come along and give contracts to all the fighters we're stuck with these imperfect humans running the show. Nothing we can do about it.

Promoters invest millions in the people they think have the best chance of giving them those millions back. No shit.


They're not laughing their arses off at anything. They're struggling to keep going long term in most cases. Look at a second tier outfit like Main Events, the Duva family. They run local shows in the New Jersey area and every now and then develop a star. Their last one was Kovalev who I think has fucked off to another promoter now. No idea whether they made enough Kovalev money when they had him to be comfortable for the next few years but I'm sure they're not so wealthy they're just laughing every day about how easy the job is. I bet it's hard sledding most of the time.

Of the top guys Haymon's firm is apparently owned by the funds who lent him the money to set up PBC, there's a billionaire taking a punt on streaming by signing up promoters like Oscar to work with them who apart from Alvarez is in danger of becoming a regional outfit on the west coast like Main Events is in NJ, Arum lost his HBO gig and if not for ESPN would be struggling and so on. Nobody is laughing here. It's an ongoing slog through a changing media landscape and nobody knows who is going to last the pace. In the meantime these guys are not going to change a single thing about the way they operate.

Y