Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

[Master]

Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.

[El Kabong]

Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.

Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.

Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.


Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.








......but he's no Joe Louis

[Master]

Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.

Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.

Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.


Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.








......but he's no Joe Louis

Yes he is greater

BTW i am sure you know this when I say great I was not saying it because it was Ali's saying it was all that he achieved in the ring.

[Primo Carnera]

Great thread. I’ve said in the past that I don’t believe he is the GOAT as a Boxer. Obviously the total impact he had was iconic , possibly more than any other human let alone sportsman.
But when you narrow it down to Ali in ‘67, I don’t think anybody does beat him.
But even more intriguing, if there had been an “Ali of ‘68 & ‘69”, I truly think there would be absolutely no argument whatsoever. Shame really.

[El Kabong]

Yes he is greater

BTW i am sure you know this when I say great I was not saying it because it was Ali's saying it was all that he achieved in the ring.

25 Consecutive Successful Title Defenses...a measurable statistical accomplishment greater than ....wait for it.....wait for it....ANY.OTHER.HEAVYWEIGHT.CHAMPION.....let's put that in a time frame.....EVER.


I rest my case

Great thread. I’ve said in the past that I don’t believe he is the GOAT as a Boxer. Obviously the total impact he had was iconic , possibly more than any other human let alone sportsman.
But when you narrow it down to Ali in ‘67, I don’t think anybody does beat him.
But even more intriguing, if there had been an “Ali of ‘68 & ‘69”, I truly think there would be absolutely no argument whatsoever. Shame really.

Let us not forget that Joe Louis lost years of his prime as well.....and again 25 title defenses in a row

[Primo Carnera]

Yes he is greater

BTW i am sure you know this when I say great I was not saying it because it was Ali's saying it was all that he achieved in the ring.

25 Consecutive Successful Title Defenses...a measurable statistical accomplishment greater than ....wait for it.....wait for it....ANY.OTHER.HEAVYWEIGHT.CHAMPION.....let's put that in a time frame.....EVER.


I rest my case

Great thread. I’ve said in the past that I don’t believe he is the GOAT as a Boxer. Obviously the total impact he had was iconic , possibly more than any other human let alone sportsman.
But when you narrow it down to Ali in ‘67, I don’t think anybody does beat him.
But even more intriguing, if there had been an “Ali of ‘68 & ‘69”, I truly think there would be absolutely no argument whatsoever. Shame really.

Let us not forget that Joe Louis lost years of his prime as well.....and again 25 title defenses in a row

Not gonna discount Louis obviously. But he was a bit before my time and I haven’t seen much of him. Although Louis’s record was clearly phenomenal, The way Ali changed the face of HW Boxing is unrivalled. Big guys never had speed and skills like him.

[Fatboxingfan]

Size usually matters, I hate it but let's look at some examples where size really did mattered:

1. First based off Lennox Louis's destruction of everybody he ever faced (let aside for now his to knockout losses with HE REVENGED in a devastation-style), he only struggled against Klitshko. He really laid a whooping down to Ray Mercer and Mike Tyson, even though they are so powerful, Lennox size dominated.

2. Now Klitschko as the examples, he dominated everyone and his size was the big factor, but moment he faced the guy the same size as in AJ, and also in Fury, he choked in both battles. Because this size was bigger than his size.

3. Ruddock Bowe destroyed everyone he faced and was undefeated because he was always the biggest fighter. That is why he tried to avoid Lenox Louis. Finally when Bo faced a fighter his own size, Andrew Gollota, he got a butt whooping 2 *.

4. See how Foreman knocked out Frazier two times. Frasier can never win that fight. Why? Because size matters.

5. Least but not least, Valuev could not be beat, due to SIZE.

[mikeeod]

1. Wladimir had the size, athleticism, and skill to give Ali trouble- bad style matchup for Ali.
2. Lennox and Riddick were both big men who had the jabs and ability to beat a prime Ali.
3. Larry Holmes in his prime gives Ali trouble with his jab.
4. Fury is a horrible match up for Ali.
5. Frazier and Ken Norton have Ali’s number and bad style match ups- they could pull the win out.

Ali is favored vs all of those listed, but I think they all are capable of pulling off the upset vs the great Ali.

[Fatboxingfan]

Thread of the Year

My finally take on this manner is that '67 Ali would outspeed any fighter in history. Or even 1965-1968 Ali as well. Frazier would've HAD to fight Ali WAY SOONER THAN MARCH 8, 1971, had Ali not been revoked. By 1968 or '69, an Ali-Frazier fight would've been forced to challenge for the title.
In 1968/69, a continuously active Ali would have whipped a younger, less experienced Frazier.

Prime Evander would dog the hell outta Ali but land few shots, maybe a boring fight due to styles. Can't picture Evander trying to cut the ring off for 15 rounds. That's just not his style.

Lennox ' s size would be tough for Ali but Lennox had shit stamina (and Ali would knock him out by the 10th or 11th or 12th round. I can see Lennox gasping for breath by about the 10th round and then Ali would just slice him like a razor blade. Ali wood pretty much due to Lennox Lewis what he did to George Foreman, it would just take him about 5 more rounds too do it. Ali TKO 13
IT WOULD SORT OF LOOK LIKE HOLMES VS COONEY.

Marciano and Dempsey would be too small

the only people I can think of at this may sound crazy but what about a prime Klitschko?

What about a prime Jack Johnson or Joe Louis?

[Master]

I am not going to criticize Joe Louis accomplishments in his 25 defences. As for him beating Ali, he was too small and slow.

Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time and was huge for his time period with the skills to match. Wonder how Johnson would manage 12 and 15 rounds compared to the 45 he was doing?

[El Kabong]

I am not going to criticize Joe Louis accomplishments in his 25 defences. As for him beating Ali, he was too small and slow.

Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time and was huge for his time period with the skills to match. Wonder how Johnson would manage 12 and 15 rounds compared to the 45 he was doing?

You're not going to criticize it because you can't. You could say "Who really did he beat?" but I'd counter with "OK then who did he duck?". Louis was 6'2...too slow? Where do you get that? He was fast enough to knock out the majority of the fighters he faced.


Jack Johnson was 6'0 & 1/2", Dempsey was 6'1, Jess Willard was 6'6 & 1/2" ....so "huge" for his time period....meh John L. Sullivan was 5'10 & 1/2", Jim Corbett was 6'1, James J. Jeffries was 6'1 & 1/2". Not really all that much of a "giant" unless you're talking personality and then yeah sure thing.

[Master]

I am not going to criticize Joe Louis accomplishments in his 25 defences. As for him beating Ali, he was too small and slow.

Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time and was huge for his time period with the skills to match. Wonder how Johnson would manage 12 and 15 rounds compared to the 45 he was doing?

You're not going to criticize it because you can't. You could say "Who really did he beat?" but I'd counter with "OK then who did he duck?". Louis was 6'2...too slow? Where do you get that? He was fast enough to knock out the majority of the fighters he faced.


Jack Johnson was 6'0 & 1/2", Dempsey was 6'1, Jess Willard was 6'6 & 1/2" ....so "huge" for his time period....meh John L. Sullivan was 5'10 & 1/2", Jim Corbett was 6'1, James J. Jeffries was 6'1 & 1/2". Not really all that much of a "giant" unless you're talking personality and then yeah sure thing.

Ok, remember I did not ask for this, you made me do it.

Joe did not duck anyone but whoever they were they were not of the calibre or league of Liston, Frazier and Foreman.

Remember Billy Conn, if a light heavy can out box Joe who was a slow starter and got knocked down early in some of his defences what would a full grown prime Ali do?

Jack Johnson I believe weighed over 15 stones which was heavy for that time period. He had great boxing skills too. I was not talking about height.

[Gandalf]

Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.

Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.

Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.


Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.








......but he's no Joe Louis

A contest between Ali and Vitali Klitschko would be fascinating. Ali of 1967 was lightning, but could he deal with the size? Vitali had chin, output, and could bang. Wlad is less interesting for me as I can just see him getting buzzed and folding. I have always liked Vitali more as a fighter.

[powerpuncher]

Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.

Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.

Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.


Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.








......but he's no Joe Louis

A contest between Ali and Vitali Klitschko would be fascinating. Ali of 1967 was lightning, but could he deal with the size? Vitali had chin, output, and could bang. Wlad is less interesting for me as I can just see him getting buzzed and folding. I have always liked Vitali more as a fighter.

Vitali is good but he is way too open to get countered. Ali would cut him up badly. I see stylistically Wlad giving Ali some trouble, but his chin is too weak to really survive I think.