Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

[Master]

I am not taking anything personally this is fun.

The names you mention on Joe Louis record, with all due respect, just do not compare. I am being very polite to them.

Joe Frazier had 9 defences and was a top 10 heavyweight on most people's list.

Getting knocked down by Two Ton Galento et al, outboxed by Conn showed his vulnerabilities. Just pointing them out and showing you Ali could have exploited them.

Just because you write FACT in capital letters does not mean he is.

Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight ever, the quality and calibre of fighters he beat during a period regarded as the best in terms of quality, illustrates that.

Again Joe Louis could only fight the fighters in his era and AGAIN you're saying "Yeah but those guys weren't as good as these guys from the 1960's and 70's".....well damn I guess Joe needed a time machine to impress you.

Frazier's defenses...my word: Manuel Ramos, Oscar Bonavena, Dave Zyglewicz, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, Ali, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander.

THE Terry Daniels? THE Ron Stander?

The result of the Galento fight was? the result of the Conn fight was? A win is a win is a win is a win...sometimes you win ugly, not like Ali ever did that


I guess I had better change my opinion so that your feathers aren't ruffled

I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

The result of the Henry Cooper was?

My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.

[Fatboxingfan]

When I pictured great brown bomber verses Smoking Joe, 1971 prime, action Frasier would have been too much for him. Lookout Smoking took ALL that Ali HAD, 15 rounds at a fastest pace anybody ever saw in boxing history. That 1971 Frazier would likely knockout brown bomber with one of his incredible left hooks!

[X]

​Ali was indeed the GREATEST heavyweight who ever lived ...... but Joe Louis was the BEST

[Master]

​Ali was indeed the GREATEST heavyweight who ever lived ...... but Joe Louis was the BEST

What does that even mean in the context of these posts?

[El Kabong]

I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

The result of the Henry Cooper was?

My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.

Why were the fighters considered better? Could be they didn't have The Great Depression or WW2 to steal talented men away from the ring Could be that post WW2 America allowed for it to be easier to be a Prize Fighter as a full time job. Joe Louis went 25 in a row with the belt and Ali didn't...and therefore the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time is Joe Louis....read again...The Greatest Heavyweight CHAMPION of All-Time is Joe Louis. Was Ali more skilled? Was Lennox more skilled? Was Tyson more skilled? Was anyone else more skilled? Doesn't fucking matter 25 in a row, 1,2...twenty fucking five in a row, set 'em up knock 'em down 1-25....how difficult is that to understand?

Ali clouda shoulda woulda...you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first JOE LOUIS DID IT....Ali could have.... Joe Louis DID


Well Joe never fought the likes of Karl Mildenberger or Brian London or Zora Folley or Richard Dunn or Joe Bunger....so don't play like Ali only fought all-time greats either.


Oh I'm sorry Joe didn't need his glove cut to save him vs Galento or Conn.


I can say Joe Louis is the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time and back it up and I have....25

[TitoFan]

They both had their share of sub-par opponents.

[powerpuncher]

Both Ali and Louis fought some great competition. It’s hard to beat Ali’s resume though. He literally fought 4 top 10 HWs of all time (Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes). He beat three of them. Holmes was at the end of his career so it wasn’t much of a contest. He also fought some other really solid opponents.

Louis proved to be able to completely clean out his division. He dominated the division for years which is tough. And again, he wasn’t fighting push overs. He fought some real tough guys.

Ali and Louis are solidly #1 and #2 HWs. Other people can change places, but they are set. I think that Ali was better.

[Fatboxingfan]

Lewis never took hundreds of bombs like Ali did when Ali was 29 against Smoking in 1971 or like Ali taken from Northon in 1973 (jaw-broken fight). Lewis ONLY got bombed out at age 37 against Marciano. Ali retired at 36 after winning the Leon rematch.

[Master]

I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

The result of the Henry Cooper was?

My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.

Why were the fighters considered better? Could be they didn't have The Great Depression or WW2 to steal talented men away from the ring Could be that post WW2 America allowed for it to be easier to be a Prize Fighter as a full time job. Joe Louis went 25 in a row with the belt and Ali didn't...and therefore the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time is Joe Louis....read again...The Greatest Heavyweight CHAMPION of All-Time is Joe Louis. Was Ali more skilled? Was Lennox more skilled? Was Tyson more skilled? Was anyone else more skilled? Doesn't fucking matter 25 in a row, 1,2...twenty fucking five in a row, set 'em up knock 'em down 1-25....how difficult is that to understand?

Ali clouda shoulda woulda...you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first JOE LOUIS DID IT....Ali could have.... Joe Louis DID


Well Joe never fought the likes of Karl Mildenberger or Brian London or Zora Folley or Richard Dunn or Joe Bunger....so don't play like Ali only fought all-time greats either.


Oh I'm sorry Joe didn't need his glove cut to save him vs Galento or Conn.


I can say Joe Louis is the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time and back it up and I have....25

25 defences is truly great and a mark of a great heavyweight because that shows consistency and dedication. I am bringing up 3 great heavyweights who had it not been for Ali would have been greater.

As Tito said, Liston was a beast with a ram rod jab, had it not been for Ali he could have reigned for years. Frazier proved his top 10 quality. Big George was another monster who proved his greatness by winning the title 20 years later.

It is all there to see but you choose not to because...?

[El Kabong]

25 defences is truly great and a mark of a great heavyweight because that shows consistency and dedication. I am bringing up 3 great heavyweights who had it not been for Ali would have been greater.

As Tito said, Liston was a beast with a ram rod jab, had it not been for Ali he could have reigned for years. Frazier proved his top 10 quality. Big George was another monster who proved his greatness by winning the title 20 years later.

It is all there to see but you choose not to because...?

You assume they'd be greater.

Liston would have ruled MAYBE until Leotis Martin beat him. Frazier maybe, who knows how he'd fare vs the guys he never got around to because he was too busy having his head bounce off of Foreman's fists. Foreman lost to Jimmy Young, is that great? Is that incredible?

25 title defenses happened. Hypothesizing about Ali is obviously an exercise in futility in your mind Ali is STILL undefeated it's the problem discussing him.


To you and boxing fans who don't bother taking the time to think: Ali's greatness is untouchable, unquestionable....Joe Louis' greatness comes with caveats "Weeeellll akshully he didn't fight great fighters" he fought who was available "Yeah but he didn't fight great fighters"....Were there any he missed? Did he duck anyone? "No, but he didn't fight Liston, Frazier, Foreman"...those may have been one sided as they weren't even babies when Joe was champ "Yeah but he didn't have those guys to fight in his era" ....and so he fought and beat 25 fighters in a row holding on to the title...so no points for consistency, none for work ethic and having what 13 bouts in 1 year? No 'atta boy's for that? OK, I get it...you love Ali and there's nobody else that could even hold a candle to him and his legacy and you're not cool with just YOU thinking that, but I've got to be corrected and think that way too.



What's the difference? Master? What's the difference? You tell me. "Oh it's the boxers Ali fought" Joe Louis fought 110% of everyone out there available to fight and beat them all....not great? Not acceptable? Not something which stands the test of time? I'm telling you it's not like Louis could go out and get a Frazier or Foreman or Liston and even you agree to that, but yet you STILL fuck around with "Well he didn't fight great fighters".......OK then I guess you're right then. I guess nobody will ever ever ever be better or on a par with Ali because of who he fought, not in the history of boxing, not in the future of boxing, boxing should have just folded and closed the doors when Ali retired because everything to achieve was achieved by Ali forever and ever amen.

[Master]

Is that all you got?

I said 25 defences showed great consistency and an incredible feat but he got beaten up and knocked out before that.

When did I say Joe had to fight little babies in Frazier?

What are you going on about?

Throwing the rattle out of the pram.

[El Kabong]

Is that all you got?

I said 25 defences showed great consistency and an incredible feat but he got beaten up and knocked out before that.

When did I say Joe had to fight little babies in Frazier?

What are you going on about?

Throwing the rattle out of the pram.

Yes all I have is statistical fact of achieved accomplishment in real life vs your hypotheticals and your feelings and your emotions. Yes.


You go around in circles with "Joe Louis' era didn't have these fighters!" and my response is "Who did he duck?" you answer "No one, but his era didn't have these fighters" and so I'll say "What can be done about it? What could Joe do about it?" you'd respond "Nothing, I'm not asking for anything to be done, but his era didn't have these fighters".....what's the point of it?


What are YOU going on about?


I'd throw Ali to the fucking moon right now if I fucking could. It's unreasonable to talk to any Ali fan at all. "he's the greatest he's the GOAT he's the greatest"....HOW? WHY? ....well you see he ummm....


See how different that is to "How is Joe Louis the greatest?" oh, well he holds a record still to this day of 25 consecutive successful title defenses so there's that concrete undeniable fact. But hey you believe what you want to believe man

[Master]

Is that all you got?

I said 25 defences showed great consistency and an incredible feat but he got beaten up and knocked out before that.

When did I say Joe had to fight little babies in Frazier?

What are you going on about?

Throwing the rattle out of the pram.

Yes all I have is statistical fact of achieved accomplishment in real life vs your hypotheticals and your feelings and your emotions. Yes.


You go around in circles with "Joe Louis' era didn't have these fighters!" and my response is "Who did he duck?" you answer "No one, but his era didn't have these fighters" and so I'll say "What can be done about it? What could Joe do about it?" you'd respond "Nothing, I'm not asking for anything to be done, but his era didn't have these fighters".....what's the point of it?


What are YOU going on about?


I'd throw Ali to the fucking moon right now if I fucking could. It's unreasonable to talk to any Ali fan at all. "he's the greatest he's the GOAT he's the greatest"....HOW? WHY? ....well you see he ummm....


See how different that is to "How is Joe Louis the greatest?" oh, well he holds a record still to this day of 25 consecutive successful title defenses so there's that concrete undeniable fact. But hey you believe what you want to believe man

Stop trying to make me sound unreasonable.

I said name me a fighter that Joe Louis fought that would be in someone's top 10 list of heavyweight greats?

You gave me a list of fighters that were frankly just not up it.

[Syntax Error]

Ali 1967 was the best we all saw of him, but it's probably safe to assume he could have even been better 1968 through to 1970 had he not been unjustly stripped & banned from fighting.

I have a hard time picking against Ali '67, but a good few would have given him fits.

Frazier always gives him trouble & Smokin' Joe was also in his pomp in 1969 & Joe had the one punch Ali hated, the monster Left hook.

Larry Holmes, Evander Holyfield & Tyson '86 - '88 also ask a lot of questions of him & probably give him his hardest fights.

Lennox Lewis & Wladimir also had the size & skillset to trouble him, but I think they are slower than him & would have found Ali too fast & elusive.

Would also have loved to see how prime Ali would have handled Ken Norton's awkard style because Ali just never solved Norton, although, to be fair, Muhammad was not in prime the three times he fought Norton.

[Fatboxingfan]

1967 Ali willth out speed Norton who plods along