Who is next for Canelo?

[TIC]

you don't even give canelo respect for fighting floyd or the second best light heavy at the time dmitry. you like to say he was embarrassed or got his ass kicked. no credit from you for taking on those challenges. you even find it hard to give canelo credit for running through three undefeated champions in eleven months to unify super middle. i doubt you'll give canelo respect if the david b fight happens, especially if canelo wins, we'll hear that david b was weight drained or any assortment of excuses

[TitoFan]

you don't even give canelo respect for fighting floyd or the second best light heavy at the time dmitry. you like to say he was embarrassed or got his ass kicked. no credit from you for taking on those challenges. you even find it hard to give canelo credit for running through three undefeated champions in eleven months to unify super middle. i doubt you'll give canelo respect if the david b fight happens, especially if canelo wins, we'll hear that david b was weight drained or any assortment of excuses

Why should I give Canelo respect for being gifted a fight against Floyd, probably ahead of more deserving fighters? (The teacher's pet always gets the preferential treatment). He didn't deserve to be there, and Floyd made sure to point that out in the ring.

Dmitry? Fine. That was just a gross miscalculation on Team Canelo's part. Believe me. Had they thought Bivol was going to be such a live dog, they would've found a way to drain him or come up with some other bullshit diva clause.

Canelo finally found his sweet spot at super middle. Of course, it helps that guys like Callum Smith laid down for him.

How am I supposed to respect a bitch that asked a cruiserweight to drain himself down 20 pounds below the limit (with rehydration clauses) in order to fight for some bullshit, meaningless cruiserweight trinket?

I've never gotten an answer from you on that, and I don't expect one now.



Canelo has NEVER (except for his miscalculations against Floyd and Bivol) gone into a fight where the deck isn't stacked FIRMLY in his favor.

I can't wait till the redheaded bitch retires.

[NoSavingByTheBell]

Well I don't like canelo for several reasons including the way he has been coddled and overhyped, I thought he fought very well against Floyd even though he was definitely outmatched. He definitely was humiliated against bivol. Even more so. But he has shown some improvement over the years which is a sign of a good fighter as opposed to a guy like Wilder who fought last week the same way he fought 10 years ago. So although I don't care for his persona or the way he has been promoted or marketed. I think he's a damn good fighter. But I don't see him beating Marvin hagler Carmine basilio sugar Ray Robinson Bernard Hopkins Roberto Duran or even a prime triple G. But still I consider him a damn good fighter

[TIC]

you don't even give canelo respect for fighting floyd or the second best light heavy at the time dmitry. you like to say he was embarrassed or got his ass kicked. no credit from you for taking on those challenges. you even find it hard to give canelo credit for running through three undefeated champions in eleven months to unify super middle. i doubt you'll give canelo respect if the david b fight happens, especially if canelo wins, we'll hear that david b was weight drained or any assortment of excuses

Why should I give Canelo respect for being gifted a fight against Floyd, probably ahead of more deserving fighters? (The teacher's pet always gets the preferential treatment). He didn't deserve to be there, and Floyd made sure to point that out in the ring.

Dmitry? Fine. That was just a gross miscalculation on Team Canelo's part. Believe me. Had they thought Bivol was going to be such a live dog, they would've found a way to drain him or come up with some other bullshit diva clause.

Canelo finally found his sweet spot at super middle. Of course, it helps that guys like Callum Smith laid down for him.

How am I supposed to respect a bitch that asked a cruiserweight to drain himself down 20 pounds below the limit (with rehydration clauses) in order to fight for some bullshit, meaningless cruiserweight trinket?

I've never gotten an answer from you on that, and I don't expect one now.



Canelo has NEVER (except for his miscalculations against Floyd and Bivol) gone into a fight where the deck isn't stacked FIRMLY in his favor.

I can't wait till the redheaded bitch retires.

wasn't canelo ranked number one at jr middleweight & a unified champ when he fought floyd? what guys do you think were more deserving at jr middleweight than canelo at that time? it was also a very successful ppv, much better than floyd's previous ppv at jr middleweight, so the public seemed to be interested

so they didn't find a way to drain dmitry or come up with some other bullshit diva clauses? you almost did it

so guys like callum smith just laid down for canelo? why weren't they lying down for each other before canelo got there?

"How am I supposed to respect a bitch that asked a cruiserweight to drain himself down 20 pounds below the limit (with rehydration clauses) in order to fight for some bullshit, meaningless cruiserweight trinket?

I've never gotten an answer from you on that, and I don't expect one now"

i'm pretty sure i've answered this before but if i haven't i'll do it right here for you. i can't tell you how to respect someone, that is something that is subjective to each person but let's put a little context to what you're saying. firstly as i understand it, that was only a proposal not an actual contract or offer & we only have badou's word to go by. did badou counter with his own proposal or offer? secondly canelo started out as a jr welterweight, badou started as a light heavy. let's say badou weighed 200 for his fight prior to that proposal & we'll say canelo was 168 for convenience, that's roughly a 32 pound difference. so canelo was asking badou to drop twenty pounds & he would come up twelve pounds. again it was just a proposal, badou was not being forced into it & if we say it is all true then he was able to turn it down or counter. i don't know if there was a counter but we know badou turned down that proposal. i guess you have to ask yourself do you respect miguel cotto or manny pacquiao for requesting catchweights from guys who were well less than 32 pounds above them in their previous fights? miguel had a 153 catchweight for the antonio margarito rematch although he weighed 154 in his previous fight & there was a jr middleweight belt on the line, he also had a 157 catchweight for daniel geale who only weighed five pounds more than miguel in their previous fights & there was a middleweight belt on the line. we can do manny but i think you get my point. besides canelo v badou never happened, miguel & manny's catchweight fights did

you say never then list exceptions

i hope canelo gives us another top fight or two before he retires

[TitoFan]

Let's take your many questions individually.

wasn't canelo ranked number one at jr middleweight & a unified champ when he fought floyd?

You're a knowledgeable boxing fan. So it's safe to presume that you know that rankings don't always reflect merit or the deserving of a shot. Especially where joke orgs like the WBC (We Blow Canelo) are involved.

so guys like callum smith just laid down for canelo? why weren't they lying down for each other before canelo got there?

I'll answer your question with another question. Are you suggesting that Callum fought Canelo like he's fought other opponents before or since then?

firstly as i understand it, that was only a proposal not an actual contract or offer & we only have badou's word to go by. did badou counter with his own proposal or offer?

So the fact that it wasn't an actual contract makes it less shameful? The fact that it was only a proposal gets Ginger off the hook? Word of advice: If you ever consider lawyering, don't.

BTW, Badou's word is good enough for me. It was widely reported by credible news sources. Or are we to only believe those that are convenient for our arguments? Can't pick and choose.

Did Badou counter with his own proposal or offer? Yeah. Hopefully he told Canelo to shove it up his ass. Sounds like a good counter to me.

let's say badou weighed 200 for his fight prior to that proposal & we'll say canelo was 168 for convenience, that's roughly a 32 pound difference. so canelo was asking badou to drop twenty pounds & he would come up twelve pounds. again it was just a proposal, badou was not being forced into it & if we say it is all true then he was able to turn it down or counter. i don't know if there was a counter but we know badou turned down that proposal.

These get worse as they go along.

I can almost hear the fumbling around, grasping for straws. First you mumble something about weight differences, as if to minimize the embarrassment Ginger subjected himself to by making this ridiculous offer to Badou. Then you go with "well, Badou was not being forced into it." Damn... that's weak.

Like I said, keep you day job. Don't go into lawyering.

i guess you have to ask yourself do you respect miguel cotto or manny pacquiao for requesting catchweights from guys who were well less than 32 pounds above them in their previous fights? miguel had a 153 catchweight for the antonio margarito rematch although he weighed 154 in his previous fight & there was a jr middleweight belt on the line, he also had a 157 catchweight for daniel geale who only weighed five pounds more than miguel in their previous fights & there was a middleweight belt on the line. we can do manny but i think you get my point. besides canelo v badou never happened, miguel & manny's catchweight fights did

Your desperation comes full circle, as you bring up Cotto and Pacquiao. Once again, I'll preface by saying you're a knowledgeable boxing fan. So presumably you know the difference between catchweights of a few pounds, (which many boxers have done), versus a guy who habitually leaps up a division or two to pick off a weak or depleted "champion", with the only purpose of adding a meaningless trinket to his mantle.

Cotto never did that. Pacquiao never did that. I don't know of ANY fighter that has shamelessly sought out opponents way beyond their division, to try and grab a meaningless trinket. (And then go scurrying back to the safety of his own weight).

You can grasp at straws. You can look for obscure exceptions. You can twist words. You can reach for examples that aren't really relevant.

NOTHING... and I mean NOTHING... will change the fact that Ginger will always be looked at... not just by me... but by MANY boxing fans and experts... as a manufactured champion who always stacked the deck in his favor, had a major boxing org by the balls, got the nod on more than one questionable decision, reached for easy prey (avoiding real challenges), and just plain f*cked up boxing for a great many of us.

You don't see ANY other champion in any other division getting the hate that Canelo does. There must be a reason for that.

[TIC]

what guys were more deserving that canelo for floyd to fight at jr middleweight?

canelo made callum look basic because he was so much better. i can't blame canelo for that. if guys like callum were just lying down like you stated then why weren't they fighting each other before canelo moved back up?

it was just a proposal. no contract was sent. jack could have countered

badou wasn't being forced to do anything, he could have countered. you don't think 32 pounds is a big weight difference for guys outside of heavyweight? maybe badou could have countered with both guys giving up 16 pounds, badou dropping 16 & canelo moving up 16

canelo proposed the catchweight because there was a 32 pound weight difference between badou & his previous fights. manny & miguel were getting catchweights from guys who were only a few pounds above them in their previous fights. manny picked up a meaningless vacant trinket against antonio margarito with a catchweight. if badou had of countered with a 16 pound drop maybe canelo would have considered it

the rest of your post is just subjective

[TIC]

@TitoFan would you think it's reasonable for nonito donaire (i'm not comparing him to canelo or ages or points of their careers at the time just the weights here) after he lost to carl frampton at featherweight & went back to bantamweight after that to fight a guy at 150? do you think it would be reasonable for him to propose a catchweight of 130? & if the guy at 150 countered & said look i can't drop 20 pounds but what if we meet half way & i come down 16 pounds & you come up 16 pounds & we fight at 134 & do you think it would be reasonable for nonito to also propose a rehydration clause on the heavier guy?

[TitoFan]

@TitoFan would you think it's reasonable for nonito donaire (i'm not comparing him to canelo or ages or points of their careers at the time just the weights here) after he lost to carl frampton at featherweight & went back to bantamweight after that to fight a guy at 150? do you think it would be reasonable for him to propose a catchweight of 130? & if the guy at 150 countered & said look i can't drop 20 pounds but what if we meet half way & i come down 16 pounds & you come up 16 pounds & we fight at 134 & do you think it would be reasonable for nonito to also propose a rehydration clause on the heavier guy?

First, I'm glad you specified that you're not comparing Nonito to Canelo.

Second, this is strictly hypothetical right? It never happened.

Unless it actually did happen, I just don't see Nonito wanting to challenge a 150-pounder. Many reasons here. At the lower weights, the difference between divisions is smaller. The little guys (the elite ones) are very disciplined as to their weight, and don't normally entertain fantasies about jumping two divisions to grab a trinket. They'll move up a division and test the waters. If their skills translate into the higher division, they'll stay there. And so on and so forth.

So this hypothetical situation is very unlikely, and just wouldn't happen with the elite guys at the lower weights. If something like that occurred it would be a sham.

Odd you would pick Nonito for this example. He's one of my favorite fighters, and the antithesis of a Canelo. All business... got his 1st loss out of the way early... never shied away from a challenge... and didn't go for this diva B.S. Then again, you can say that for most elite fighters at the lower divisions.

[TIC]

@TitoFan would you think it's reasonable for nonito donaire (i'm not comparing him to canelo or ages or points of their careers at the time just the weights here) after he lost to carl frampton at featherweight & went back to bantamweight after that to fight a guy at 150? do you think it would be reasonable for him to propose a catchweight of 130? & if the guy at 150 countered & said look i can't drop 20 pounds but what if we meet half way & i come down 16 pounds & you come up 16 pounds & we fight at 134 & do you think it would be reasonable for nonito to also propose a rehydration clause on the heavier guy?

First, I'm glad you specified that you're not comparing Nonito to Canelo.

Second, this is strictly hypothetical right? It never happened.

Unless it actually did happen, I just don't see Nonito wanting to challenge a 150-pounder. Many reasons here. At the lower weights, the difference between divisions is smaller. The little guys (the elite ones) are very disciplined as to their weight, and don't normally entertain fantasies about jumping two divisions to grab a trinket. They'll move up a division and test the waters. If their skills translate into the higher division, they'll stay there. And so on and so forth.

So this hypothetical situation is very unlikely, and just wouldn't happen with the elite guys at the lower weights. If something like that occurred it would be a sham.

Odd you would pick Nonito for this example. He's one of my favorite fighters, and the antithesis of a Canelo. All business... got his 1st loss out of the way early... never shied away from a challenge... and didn't go for this diva B.S. Then again, you can say that for most elite fighters at the lower divisions.

as i said i'm just comparing the weights. i only used nonito because he was a fighter who went up & then came back down in weight similar to canelo in recent times. forget the fighters altogether. outside of heavyweight if fighter a was the star & wanted to fight a guy 32 pounds heavier than him from their previous fights & probably offer him a career high payday, do you think requesting he come up 12 pounds & fighter b come down 20 pounds is a reasonable starting point to propose for a catchweight? or do you think there shouldn't be a catchweight at all?

[TitoFan]

This is all a matter of preference. For my taste, I dislike fighters seeking matches with that much of a weight difference. We have weight divisions for a reason. A fighter going up several weight divisions is fine. Just do it naturally, and preferably one division at a time. You go up a division? Establish dominance at that division before seeking to continue going up. If you don't do this, you're whoring yourself out seeking meaningless trinkets, and ignoring deserving fighters around you. When fans lend credence to this shit, they're doing a disservice to the sport, IMO. If a fighter can climb one, two, three divisions throughout the course of his career, all the more power to him. But the hopscotch targeting of weak division champions, or asking much heavier champions to drain themselves... is contrary to the traditional and competitive nature of the sport. Again, my opinion.

[NoSavingByTheBell]

This is all a matter of preference. For my taste, I dislike fighters seeking matches with that much of a weight difference. We have weight divisions for a reason. A fighter going up several weight divisions is fine. Just do it naturally, and preferably one division at a time. You go up a division? Establish dominance at that division before seeking to continue going up. If you don't do this, you're whoring yourself out seeking meaningless trinkets, and ignoring deserving fighters around you. When fans lend credence to this shit, they're doing a disservice to the sport, IMO. If a fighter can climb one, two, three divisions throughout the course of his career, all the more power to him. But the hopscotch targeting of weak division champions, or asking much heavier champions to drain themselves... is contrary to the traditional and competitive nature of the sport. Again, my opinion.

"Whoring yourself out as Hopscotch Targeting"

by TitoFan

What a little whore
Hopscotch bitch
Simon says
Alvarez

Catchweight Clenbuteral
Tainted steak
Floyd and Biv whipped his ass
The Cinnamon Coddled Fake

[TIC]

let me rephrase the question. do you think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight?

it's not like badou is the first fighter who would have had to drop 20 pounds from his previous fight weight. archie moore did more than that a couple of times in his career. roy jones jr dropped 18 pounds to come back down to fight antonio tarver. james toney dropped 31 pounds to come back down to cruiserweight & 25 pounds to fight earl butler, ossie ocasio dropped about 27 pounds, orlin norris did it a couple of times, glenn mccrory & others

[TitoFan]

let me rephrase the question. do you think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight?

it's not like badou is the first fighter who would have had to drop 20 pounds from his previous fight weight. archie moore did more than that a couple of times in his career. roy jones jr dropped 18 pounds to come back down to fight antonio tarver. james toney dropped 31 pounds to come back down to cruiserweight & 25 pounds to fight earl butler, ossie ocasio dropped about 27 pounds, orlin norris did it a couple of times, glenn mccrory & others

No need to rephrase. I understood the question the first time and thought I answered it quite clearly.

But addressing the examples you cite...

To be clear, I've never been a fan of ANY of those huge weight swings. Speaking of which... how did it go for RJJ against Tarver? The human body is not meant to absorb huge "see-saw" weight gains and drops, and still allow athletic competition at a world-class level. It's freakish, and lends a circus-like atmosphere to the sport. Toney was at his best at the lower weights, but became an artificially blown-up fat ass heavyweight. I was never a fan of that, nor of his huge weight drops.

But never mind all that. Here's the biggest difference between all of what you've said, and Canelo asking Badou to drop 20 pounds. Ready?

Canelo is a high-profile, money-making machine in boxing. Overhyped and manufactured, in my opinion, as you are well aware. For him to specifically target much higher weight fighters by ASKING them to drop 20 pounds and then supposedly fight for a (cough) "title" at that higher weight... well... it's disgraceful, cheap, and fits his career M.O. perfectly. Remember... you asked.

The fighters you mentioned dropped all that weight on their own volition. Because they WANTED to. Not because they were asked by some diva punk, who thinks it's ok to pick up a cruiserweight title from a 200-pounder who has had to drain himself to 180. Badou's dismissal of Canelo was perfect.

Finally... Toney, RJJ... all started at much lower weights. So at least in Toney's case, all he did was drop a lot of FAT. It's like dropping off the extra luggage you had picked up when you found out the taxi cab you were expecting was actually a scooter.
Badou, by contrast, is a workmanlike fighter, who just goes about his business and eschews all those circus-like weight shenanigans.
I hope he literally told Ginger to go f*ck himself.

I honestly hope I've answered your questions on this. The harder you try and justify Ginger on some of his antics... the worse he looks.

[TIC]

let me rephrase the question. do you think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight?

it's not like badou is the first fighter who would have had to drop 20 pounds from his previous fight weight. archie moore did more than that a couple of times in his career. roy jones jr dropped 18 pounds to come back down to fight antonio tarver. james toney dropped 31 pounds to come back down to cruiserweight & 25 pounds to fight earl butler, ossie ocasio dropped about 27 pounds, orlin norris did it a couple of times, glenn mccrory & others

To be clear, I've never been a fan of ANY of those huge weight swings. Speaking of which... how did it go for RJJ against Tarver? The human body is not meant to absorb huge "see-saw" weight gains and drops, and still allow athletic competition at a world-class level. It's freakish, and lends a circus-like atmosphere to the sport. Toney was at his best at the lower weights, but became an artificially blown-up fat ass heavyweight. I was never a fan of that, nor of his huge weight drops.

But never mind all that. Here's the biggest difference between all of what you've said, and Canelo asking Badou to drop 20 pounds. Ready?

Canelo is a high-profile, money-making machine in boxing. Overhyped and manufactured, in my opinion, as you are well aware. For him to specifically target much higher weight fighters by ASKING them to drop 20 pounds and then supposedly fight for a (cough) "title" at that higher weight... well... it's disgraceful, cheap, and fits his career M.O. perfectly. Remember... you asked.

The fighters you mentioned dropped all that weight on their own volition. Because they WANTED to. Not because they were asked by some diva punk, who thinks it's ok to pick up a cruiserweight title from a 200-pounder who has had to drain himself to 180. Badou's dismissal of Canelo was perfect.

Finally... Toney, RJJ... all started at much lower weights. So at least in Toney's case, all he did was drop a lot of FAT. It's like dropping off the extra luggage you had picked up when you found out the taxi cab you were expecting was actually a scooter.
Badou, by contrast, is a workmanlike fighter, who just goes about his business and eschews all those circus-like weight shenanigans.
I hope he literally told Ginger to go f*ck himself.

I honestly hope I've answered your questions on this. The harder you try and justify Ginger on some of his antics... the worse he looks.

okay so you don't think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight

roy jones won the fight with antonio, although it was a tough fight, antonio was a good fighter so i'd say it went well for roy

we'll have to agree to dusagree about the human body being to absorb huge "see-saw" weight gains and drops, and still allow athletic competition at a world-class level. many of the fighters i mentioned performed at world-class levels after the drop

you may not have been a fan of james toney's weight drops but he still dropped the weight

you are unable to separate canelo from the discussion. the rephrased question doesn't mention canelo at all, it asks about a fighter proposing another fighter to drop weight. but since you brought him up again, what weight division would a catchweight of 180 be in?

saying the fighters i mentioned dropped all that weight on their own volition is not entirely true. no fighter wants to drop 20 pounds willingly. they did it because they thought it was best for their careers. archie moore was being made to jump through hoops to get a fight with rocky marciano, bouncy up & down in weight. i could argue that badou was unwlling to do what other fighters have done, seems to be working out great for his career. i'm sure bridgerweight will do wonders for him

badou also started at a lower weight & spent much of his career at super middle. james toney still had to dedicte himself to cut the weight because he thought it was best for his career

do you really think canelo cares that badou turned down the opportunity? canelo is still getting his guarantees & fighting, what has badou being doing in the ring over the last year?

again the rephrased question had nothing to do with canelo. try to separate him from the actual discussion taking place

[TitoFan]

TIC, I'm "unable" to separate Canelo from the weight discussion for three basic reasons. One, because he's the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. You continue trying to justify Canelo's weight gymnastics, while I'm tearing them down. Two, it's impossible not to compare the fighters you yourself have brought up, obviously in Canelo's defense, for the purpose of comparing. Three, it serves for me to point out the clear and distinct differences between normal weight changes by fighters, and Canelo's shameless reaching for meaningless trinkets, while using his diva status to stack the deck in his favor.

But if you just want me to comment on the other fighters, I think I've done that as well. I think it's obvious that we think differently on weight. You apparently don't care how huge the jumps are, while I prefer a more natural progression in weight. I prefer when a fighter says... "I'm going up in weight because (a) I find it hard to make this weight anymore, or (b) I've already dominated everyone there is to face here." I despise divas who jump OVER divisions where they've already gotten their asses kicked, looking for a heavier (but perceivably weaker) belt holder just to get a shiny new trinket.

We can continue this discussion as long as you like. I really don't mind, because every time I talk about it, it just makes Canelo look worse and worse.