Who is next for Canelo?

[TIC]

@TitoFan would you think it's reasonable for nonito donaire (i'm not comparing him to canelo or ages or points of their careers at the time just the weights here) after he lost to carl frampton at featherweight & went back to bantamweight after that to fight a guy at 150? do you think it would be reasonable for him to propose a catchweight of 130? & if the guy at 150 countered & said look i can't drop 20 pounds but what if we meet half way & i come down 16 pounds & you come up 16 pounds & we fight at 134 & do you think it would be reasonable for nonito to also propose a rehydration clause on the heavier guy?

First, I'm glad you specified that you're not comparing Nonito to Canelo.

Second, this is strictly hypothetical right? It never happened.

Unless it actually did happen, I just don't see Nonito wanting to challenge a 150-pounder. Many reasons here. At the lower weights, the difference between divisions is smaller. The little guys (the elite ones) are very disciplined as to their weight, and don't normally entertain fantasies about jumping two divisions to grab a trinket. They'll move up a division and test the waters. If their skills translate into the higher division, they'll stay there. And so on and so forth.

So this hypothetical situation is very unlikely, and just wouldn't happen with the elite guys at the lower weights. If something like that occurred it would be a sham.

Odd you would pick Nonito for this example. He's one of my favorite fighters, and the antithesis of a Canelo. All business... got his 1st loss out of the way early... never shied away from a challenge... and didn't go for this diva B.S. Then again, you can say that for most elite fighters at the lower divisions.

as i said i'm just comparing the weights. i only used nonito because he was a fighter who went up & then came back down in weight similar to canelo in recent times. forget the fighters altogether. outside of heavyweight if fighter a was the star & wanted to fight a guy 32 pounds heavier than him from their previous fights & probably offer him a career high payday, do you think requesting he come up 12 pounds & fighter b come down 20 pounds is a reasonable starting point to propose for a catchweight? or do you think there shouldn't be a catchweight at all?

[TitoFan]

This is all a matter of preference. For my taste, I dislike fighters seeking matches with that much of a weight difference. We have weight divisions for a reason. A fighter going up several weight divisions is fine. Just do it naturally, and preferably one division at a time. You go up a division? Establish dominance at that division before seeking to continue going up. If you don't do this, you're whoring yourself out seeking meaningless trinkets, and ignoring deserving fighters around you. When fans lend credence to this shit, they're doing a disservice to the sport, IMO. If a fighter can climb one, two, three divisions throughout the course of his career, all the more power to him. But the hopscotch targeting of weak division champions, or asking much heavier champions to drain themselves... is contrary to the traditional and competitive nature of the sport. Again, my opinion.

[NoSavingByTheBell]

This is all a matter of preference. For my taste, I dislike fighters seeking matches with that much of a weight difference. We have weight divisions for a reason. A fighter going up several weight divisions is fine. Just do it naturally, and preferably one division at a time. You go up a division? Establish dominance at that division before seeking to continue going up. If you don't do this, you're whoring yourself out seeking meaningless trinkets, and ignoring deserving fighters around you. When fans lend credence to this shit, they're doing a disservice to the sport, IMO. If a fighter can climb one, two, three divisions throughout the course of his career, all the more power to him. But the hopscotch targeting of weak division champions, or asking much heavier champions to drain themselves... is contrary to the traditional and competitive nature of the sport. Again, my opinion.

"Whoring yourself out as Hopscotch Targeting"

by TitoFan

What a little whore
Hopscotch bitch
Simon says
Alvarez

Catchweight Clenbuteral
Tainted steak
Floyd and Biv whipped his ass
The Cinnamon Coddled Fake

[TIC]

let me rephrase the question. do you think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight?

it's not like badou is the first fighter who would have had to drop 20 pounds from his previous fight weight. archie moore did more than that a couple of times in his career. roy jones jr dropped 18 pounds to come back down to fight antonio tarver. james toney dropped 31 pounds to come back down to cruiserweight & 25 pounds to fight earl butler, ossie ocasio dropped about 27 pounds, orlin norris did it a couple of times, glenn mccrory & others

[TitoFan]

let me rephrase the question. do you think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight?

it's not like badou is the first fighter who would have had to drop 20 pounds from his previous fight weight. archie moore did more than that a couple of times in his career. roy jones jr dropped 18 pounds to come back down to fight antonio tarver. james toney dropped 31 pounds to come back down to cruiserweight & 25 pounds to fight earl butler, ossie ocasio dropped about 27 pounds, orlin norris did it a couple of times, glenn mccrory & others

No need to rephrase. I understood the question the first time and thought I answered it quite clearly.

But addressing the examples you cite...

To be clear, I've never been a fan of ANY of those huge weight swings. Speaking of which... how did it go for RJJ against Tarver? The human body is not meant to absorb huge "see-saw" weight gains and drops, and still allow athletic competition at a world-class level. It's freakish, and lends a circus-like atmosphere to the sport. Toney was at his best at the lower weights, but became an artificially blown-up fat ass heavyweight. I was never a fan of that, nor of his huge weight drops.

But never mind all that. Here's the biggest difference between all of what you've said, and Canelo asking Badou to drop 20 pounds. Ready?

Canelo is a high-profile, money-making machine in boxing. Overhyped and manufactured, in my opinion, as you are well aware. For him to specifically target much higher weight fighters by ASKING them to drop 20 pounds and then supposedly fight for a (cough) "title" at that higher weight... well... it's disgraceful, cheap, and fits his career M.O. perfectly. Remember... you asked.

The fighters you mentioned dropped all that weight on their own volition. Because they WANTED to. Not because they were asked by some diva punk, who thinks it's ok to pick up a cruiserweight title from a 200-pounder who has had to drain himself to 180. Badou's dismissal of Canelo was perfect.

Finally... Toney, RJJ... all started at much lower weights. So at least in Toney's case, all he did was drop a lot of FAT. It's like dropping off the extra luggage you had picked up when you found out the taxi cab you were expecting was actually a scooter.
Badou, by contrast, is a workmanlike fighter, who just goes about his business and eschews all those circus-like weight shenanigans.
I hope he literally told Ginger to go f*ck himself.

I honestly hope I've answered your questions on this. The harder you try and justify Ginger on some of his antics... the worse he looks.

[TIC]

let me rephrase the question. do you think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight?

it's not like badou is the first fighter who would have had to drop 20 pounds from his previous fight weight. archie moore did more than that a couple of times in his career. roy jones jr dropped 18 pounds to come back down to fight antonio tarver. james toney dropped 31 pounds to come back down to cruiserweight & 25 pounds to fight earl butler, ossie ocasio dropped about 27 pounds, orlin norris did it a couple of times, glenn mccrory & others

To be clear, I've never been a fan of ANY of those huge weight swings. Speaking of which... how did it go for RJJ against Tarver? The human body is not meant to absorb huge "see-saw" weight gains and drops, and still allow athletic competition at a world-class level. It's freakish, and lends a circus-like atmosphere to the sport. Toney was at his best at the lower weights, but became an artificially blown-up fat ass heavyweight. I was never a fan of that, nor of his huge weight drops.

But never mind all that. Here's the biggest difference between all of what you've said, and Canelo asking Badou to drop 20 pounds. Ready?

Canelo is a high-profile, money-making machine in boxing. Overhyped and manufactured, in my opinion, as you are well aware. For him to specifically target much higher weight fighters by ASKING them to drop 20 pounds and then supposedly fight for a (cough) "title" at that higher weight... well... it's disgraceful, cheap, and fits his career M.O. perfectly. Remember... you asked.

The fighters you mentioned dropped all that weight on their own volition. Because they WANTED to. Not because they were asked by some diva punk, who thinks it's ok to pick up a cruiserweight title from a 200-pounder who has had to drain himself to 180. Badou's dismissal of Canelo was perfect.

Finally... Toney, RJJ... all started at much lower weights. So at least in Toney's case, all he did was drop a lot of FAT. It's like dropping off the extra luggage you had picked up when you found out the taxi cab you were expecting was actually a scooter.
Badou, by contrast, is a workmanlike fighter, who just goes about his business and eschews all those circus-like weight shenanigans.
I hope he literally told Ginger to go f*ck himself.

I honestly hope I've answered your questions on this. The harder you try and justify Ginger on some of his antics... the worse he looks.

okay so you don't think it's reasonable for a fighter to propose that another fighter come down 20 pounds for a fight

roy jones won the fight with antonio, although it was a tough fight, antonio was a good fighter so i'd say it went well for roy

we'll have to agree to dusagree about the human body being to absorb huge "see-saw" weight gains and drops, and still allow athletic competition at a world-class level. many of the fighters i mentioned performed at world-class levels after the drop

you may not have been a fan of james toney's weight drops but he still dropped the weight

you are unable to separate canelo from the discussion. the rephrased question doesn't mention canelo at all, it asks about a fighter proposing another fighter to drop weight. but since you brought him up again, what weight division would a catchweight of 180 be in?

saying the fighters i mentioned dropped all that weight on their own volition is not entirely true. no fighter wants to drop 20 pounds willingly. they did it because they thought it was best for their careers. archie moore was being made to jump through hoops to get a fight with rocky marciano, bouncy up & down in weight. i could argue that badou was unwlling to do what other fighters have done, seems to be working out great for his career. i'm sure bridgerweight will do wonders for him

badou also started at a lower weight & spent much of his career at super middle. james toney still had to dedicte himself to cut the weight because he thought it was best for his career

do you really think canelo cares that badou turned down the opportunity? canelo is still getting his guarantees & fighting, what has badou being doing in the ring over the last year?

again the rephrased question had nothing to do with canelo. try to separate him from the actual discussion taking place

[TitoFan]

TIC, I'm "unable" to separate Canelo from the weight discussion for three basic reasons. One, because he's the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. You continue trying to justify Canelo's weight gymnastics, while I'm tearing them down. Two, it's impossible not to compare the fighters you yourself have brought up, obviously in Canelo's defense, for the purpose of comparing. Three, it serves for me to point out the clear and distinct differences between normal weight changes by fighters, and Canelo's shameless reaching for meaningless trinkets, while using his diva status to stack the deck in his favor.

But if you just want me to comment on the other fighters, I think I've done that as well. I think it's obvious that we think differently on weight. You apparently don't care how huge the jumps are, while I prefer a more natural progression in weight. I prefer when a fighter says... "I'm going up in weight because (a) I find it hard to make this weight anymore, or (b) I've already dominated everyone there is to face here." I despise divas who jump OVER divisions where they've already gotten their asses kicked, looking for a heavier (but perceivably weaker) belt holder just to get a shiny new trinket.

We can continue this discussion as long as you like. I really don't mind, because every time I talk about it, it just makes Canelo look worse and worse.

[TIC]

one. the rephrased question did not mention canelo at all. it was about if you thought it was reasonable for a fighter to dropped close to 20 pounds

two. i wasn't comparing other fighters to canelo, they were mentioned to show that dropping that amount of weight is something that has been done throughout the sports history

three. the rephrased question was about if you thought it was reasonable for a fighter to drop around 20 pounds, again nothing about canelo

you seem to think it's unreasonable & i think it's reasonable if the fighter thinks it's in their best interests. we can agree to disagree

when you mention fighters jumping over divisions i assume you're referring to canelo looking heavier than light heavy? remember canelo offered dmitry the same terms for the rematch & dmitry turned the fight down so canelo went looking elsewhere & ended up fulfilling a mandatory

there's several different discussions here, one about if it is reasonable for a fighter to drop around 20 pounds & another about if it's reasonable for a fighter who started at jr welter & is currently already in his fifth weight division to propose that a fighter who started at light heavy & held a 32 pound weight advantage from their previous fights to drop 20 pounds. you don't think either are reasonable, i think both are reasonable. we can agree to disagree

[KickMuck]

This sounds like the old Mayweather fan vs hater discussions.

Usually someone got emo hurt because Mayweather schooled their favourite fighter and the pages and pages of arguments in the end meant nothing. Part and parcel of successful greats in boxing is due to the political chess involved with timing, management and deal making.

You cant knock Canelos achievements no more than you can knock Mayweather's. In the ring Canelo is a class act. Deny if you will but I choose to focus on the fight in front of me and the way an operator works the ring. Very entertaining.