RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler

[Spicoli]

Real life bs stepped in and took my mind out of it for a bit but interesting discussion. I wasn't following close to boxing in 87 so the general big picture attitude leading up to Hagler v Leonard escapes me. Found the original HBO lead up to it and sounds like some thought both Hagler and Ray were passed it and Clancy thought it was just Ray. One thing I had no idea about was that the fight was talked about as early as 81 and it was Ray coming back solely to face Hagler. They were negotiating even before the Kevin Howard fight and it all went mute when Ray suffered the eye injury and was forced into retirement. Had no idea it was basically in the works for 4 years. Also never realized that Hearns didn't just leap a division, he actually fought a few fights at middle and was ranked there prior to fighting Hagler. Duran always felt like more about the entirety of the fab-four and massive attraction between two super stars going in. The lineage of how each Hagler foe did against one another. Found another top-notch doc on Hagler too, lots of details fight to fight.

[TIC]

Hagler-Leonard was a fight I never understood, to be fair. I also felt that wasn't the same Hagler in there that fought Hearns. But the fight before Leonard was against John "The Beast" Mugabi. A dangerous, undefeated, avoided fighter who was 25-0, all by knockout at the time of the fight. It was a brutal war. So toward the end of his career, he took on a dangerous opponent who people thought had a legitimate chance to get Hagler out of there.

Hagler-Hearns was a classic, widely regarded as one of the best 3-round fights in history. Though Hearns came up from super welter, he was 6 foot 1, and his body was better suited for the higher weights, where he ended up fighting.

Prior to that it was Mustafa Hamsho and Juan Domingo Roldan, two very rugged middleweights.

If anything, Hagler ended his career in a manner befitting his great, HOF career. Again... the Leonard fight was strange to me. Both the matchup, the fight, and the outcome.

But none of this lessens Hagler's legacy, nor IMO requires anyone giving him "a pass."

yeah that ray fight sure is a cash out to me. those that say mike mccallum hadn't done anything at middleweight overlook the fact that john mugabi, roberto duran, tommy hearns & ray leonard hadn't done anything of note at the weight either. nothing wrong with that, bernard hopkins probably made his biggest purses against tito & oscar. no one is trying to lessen marvins legacy. one should be able to critique parts of a fighters career without being critical of the whole body of work

You're totally right about being able to critique parts of a fighter's career without being critical of the whole body of work.

Of those you mentioned, I'll talk about Hagler and Hopkins. Hagler was known during his entire career as a warrior. He always took the tough fights. Even those you mentioned (SRL, Hearns, Duran) brought more than enough to the table. Of Hearns in particular, the following must be said. We shouldn't focus on the fact that Hearns was coming up from 154. Fact is he was always too tall for his weight (meaning he had the frame to able to carry more weight). At 160, he looked fit and strong. He even went higher in weight later in his career. The Hearns-Hagler fight was an instant classic... and no one knew beforehand how Hagler would respond from getting hit by those right hands from Hearns. In other words, Hagler took a significant risk.

Hopkins. Yes, he fought both Trinidad and DLH at middle, when neither of them was a true middle. But in Trinidad's case, he had just knocked out a bonafide MW champion in William Joppy. This was part of a MW Championship Series put together by Don King, so yes... Hopkins ended up fighting Trinidad. Plus the public was clamoring for the fight, since Felix had seemingly made the jump to middle with ease. On the other hand, the DLH fight I can't defend. That one I'll put in the category of Hagler-Leonard. DLH didn't belong at middle... and much less in the ring with Hopkins.

But none of this diminishes the career of either Hagler or Hopkins. Both were warriors, and neither looked for the easy way out most of the time (save those two fights). I don't recall either one of them seeking advantages in their big fights... ducking obvious opponents... playing weight games constantly to their favor... protecting their "0"s... or being blatantly favored by judges every time they fought. But yes... we can definitely critique those parts of their careers, without being critical of the whole body of work.

In other cases, one can critique both the end of a fighter's career, and... the whole body of work.

"Even those you mentioned (SRL, Hearns, Duran) brought more than enough to the table"
i agree with you on tommy, ray & roberto not so much

i also agree that oscar shouldn't have been at middle. i thought he lost to felix sturm. i was on the tito train from when he moved to fifty four, although young i remember being so excited for the fernando vargas & bernard fights, i remember big watch parties for those at my folks house. i was sure tito was winning that tournament & had mixed emotions at the result. i was bummed (no diddy) tito lost but in awe of bernards performance

"But none of this diminishes the career of either Hagler or Hopkins"
again, no one is trying to diminish anyone's career, both were warriors. i actually think with his age & moving up to light heavy bernard finished his career very impressively & very tough

Real life bs stepped in and took my mind out of it for a bit but interesting discussion. I wasn't following close to boxing in 87 so the general big picture attitude leading up to Hagler v Leonard escapes me. Found the original HBO lead up to it and sounds like some thought both Hagler and Ray were passed it and Clancy thought it was just Ray. One thing I had no idea about was that the fight was talked about as early as 81 and it was Ray coming back solely to face Hagler. They were negotiating even before the Kevin Howard fight and it all went mute when Ray suffered the eye injury and was forced into retirement. Had no idea it was basically in the works for 4 years. Also never realized that Hearns didn't just leap a division, he actually fought a few fights at middle and was ranked there prior to fighting Hagler. Duran always felt like more about the entirety of the fab-four and massive attraction between two super stars going in. The lineage of how each Hagler foe did against one another. Found another top-notch doc on Hagler too, lots of details fight to fight.

nice finds. hope all is good in the real world. i know it can be seen as blasphemy by some to question past greats but my intention is to get an understanding of certain fights & how they were perceived at the time. titofan seems to think marvin wasn't the same going into the ray fight. a marvin v ray fight before the eye injury would have been very interesting, even in eighty four, by eighty seven i think they were both cashing up. tommy had a couple of fights above jr middle & had defended his wbc jr middle belt prior to facing marvin

[Master]

The short answer is no, Hagler fought legends which enhanced his legacy by taking on Duran, Hearns and Leonard.

Duran was the first fight for Hagler where he received huge money and mainstream attention. Roberto went on to become champion when he beat Blade Barkley.

The Hearns fight was built for ages and Tommy went on to higher weights to become champion. It also provided the greatest 3 rounds ever.

Whilst he may have lost to Leonard he had the last laugh when he stayed retired to the frustration of Ray. Leonard went on and got embarrassed by Norris and Macho Man.

[TIC]

The short answer is no, Hagler fought legends which enhanced his legacy by taking on Duran, Hearns and Leonard.

Duran was the first fight for Hagler where he received huge money and mainstream attention. Roberto went on to become champion when he beat Blade Barkley.

The Hearns fight was built for ages and Tommy went on to higher weights to become champion. It also provided the greatest 3 rounds ever.

Whilst he may have lost to Leonard he had the last laugh when he stayed retired to the frustration of Ray. Leonard went on and got embarrassed by Norris and Macho Man.

"Hagler fought legends which enhanced his legacy by taking on Duran, Hearns and Leonard."
yes he fought legends that enhanced his legacy, i'll give you tommy but roberto & ray were cash grabs rather than real challenges

"Duran was the first fight for Hagler where he received huge money and mainstream attention. Roberto went on to become champion when he beat Blade Barkley."
huge money & mainstream attention yes but not the biggest challenges & that was a great night for roberto against the blade

tommy was a beast at welter & jr middle & i think he naturally fit into middleweight

marvin lost to an almost three year inactive ray who had only fought once in the last five years & was basically moving up from welter. it's a pity marvin had to ben the knee to get the ray fight, giving up to twelve rounds, glove size & ring size. if that fight was over fifteen rounds marvin stops ray in my opinion. did ray get embarrassed or was he just spent by those fights?

i think by the time of the roberto fight marvin had cleaned out all the challenges at middle & was looking for big money against the guys below him. nothing wrong with that. we'd all take easier assignments for bigger pay. so yes i give marvin a pass for that. i remember tommy getting injured & causing the fight to be delayed at one stage. imagine if after the tommy fight if marvin instead chose to move up, looking for the biggest challenge & went in against michael spinks

[Master]

No body knows what would happen when Hagler faced the legends in boxing.
Just as you say it would be good to have seen Hagler against Spinks at light heavy, it was historic to see Hagler v Hearns/Duran/Leonard.

For some reason Duran gave Hagler quite a challenge and Leonard beat him in a disputed decision. The 12 rounds as to having 15 did cost Hagler, also starting in an orthodox stance for the early part of the fight. Leonard trained hard in secret for the years he was out perfecting his fight against Marvin. Ray was a crafty manipulator who essentially stole the fight.

Every boxer’s career could be critiqued but Hagler’s is less so as I think he did everything he possibly could in the time he was champion.

[TitoFan]

No body knows what would happen when Hagler faced the legends in boxing.

THAT... to me is what separates the true great fighters from the manufactured ones. Nobody knew what would happen when Hagler faced Hearns. Nobody knew what would happen when Hagler faced Mugabi.

The same applies to the other great ones. Nobody knew what would happen when Leonard faced Hearns... each time. Absolutely NOBODY knew what would happen when Leonard faced Duran... each time.

You can go on and on and on. The truly great ones went into fights not knowing what would happen... and neither did the fans.

I miss those days.

[TIC]

No body knows what would happen when Hagler faced the legends in boxing.

Just as you say it would be good to have seen Hagler against Spinks at light heavy, it was historic to see Hagler v Hearns/Duran/Leonard.

by the legends are you still talking roberto, tommy & ray? roberto had to be a big underdog, a great lightweight, his place as an all time welterweight great needs discussion. on his night he would be tough for any welter in history, just not a lot of work there compared to the divisions history. marvin was a dominant middlweight champion. tommy i think would have been seen as much more of a threat with his power but his chin had already let him down at welter. ray was inactive for almost three years & moving up, i think he would have been a big underdog as well. i would guess marvin was seen as a solid favourite in all three of those fights

a marvin v michael spinks fight would have been seen as a massive challenge & risk for marvin. it may have been historic to see marvin v tommy, roberto & ray but marvin was the favourite going into all of those fights. marvin took the easier fights for better money

Nobody knew what would happen when Hagler faced Mugabi.

my understanding is that john was seen as untested & unproven. marvin was the favourite in that fight

[Master]

Just because Marvin was favourite in his fights does not mean they were not impressive wins. He cleared his old challengers and started taking on the new and therefore untested contenders.

Marvin's record stands to good scrutiny and impressive by most standards.