how to excute the shoulder roll to a good standard any ideas??

[Sharla]

All good Chris

Since you're happy to comment on this topic maybe I can throw a basic question in here and somewhat lower the bar of basic knowledge required to read this thread.

What's the risk of getting a dead arm using the shoulder roll defensively?

Also am I correct in understanding from all this that a few practiced individuals would mostly use it when in fighting or on the ropes and at times when movement is not so easy - or did I misinterpret that?

[Chris Nagel]

What do you mean by a dead arm? Are you asking what are the risks of getting your arm hurt while doing the shoulder roll? There isn't any more risk than anything else, the shoulder roll does not require a low left lead. It would be funny though if someone did actually target the shoulder or bicep, I guess if my opponent was attacking mine that I could use it as bait, then I can counter him.

The shoulder roll can be done anywhere in the ring, I've seen many boxers do this including good women boxers. Freddy Roach teaches it, as well as a lot of old-school trainers. I posted a couple of his videos, you can find it in the file share section. Look it up, it under Fitness and Instructional Videos/ Freddie Roaches Advanced Techniques. He shows one good example of the low left lead, and using the shoulder roll to deflect a right hand and countering with a right hook to the solar plexus. And a couple other good counters too that are worth checking out.

[Olympian904]

Its a pretty tricky to master sharla...
1.Its hard to be on the offense unless you really know what your doing.
2.If your reflexes arent good...you'll most likely get hit hard with hooks.
3.It involves a lot of angles...and if you dont understand it..you'll continue to throw wide looping punches.

I never knew freddie roach taught it...IMO.Its pointless coming from him b/c his career wasnt good...and he didnt even use it.I personally think that he is overrated as a trainer...sorry to get off of the subject.

[Chris Nagel]

Where are you coming from? It's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Olympian904... Have you heard of Eddy Futch? That's the guy that shown the low lead, shoulder roll and counter to Roach. It's not rocket science, and if you don't get it, then don't act like you know something.

[Von Milash]

the shoulder roll aint for beginners. It's for the seasoned fighter.

Stick with basics, kid.

[ThomasTabin]

thats absolutely true about fighters having rhythms or essences to them. Great fighters are able to accurately read their opponent's 'essence' and then react with the appropriate tactic. This is a product of the brain and can only be strengthened or exercised by lots of sparring and tape watching; in other words experience. This goes back to the subject of the shoulder roll in that the young james toney had that same sixth sense Chris was talking about. The shoulder roll appears dangerous and risky but to someone with the ability see into their opponent its actually quite safe. You never could see Toney or say mike mcallum getting hit alot because they knew what their opponent was trying to do to them as though they were in control of their opponents without them knowing they were. This ties into the basic foundations of what I've gathered from boxing over the years in that your opponent can only do what you allow him to do.

But for the shoulder roll always remember that you must roll away whilst doing it so as to 1. take steam off of the punch and 2. gain leverage to start up your counter right hook/uppercut. This counter is a necessary thing to learn if you want to learn the shoulder roll as they go hand in hand since he is exposed upon throwing the right.

In this way the shoulder roll is very unique in boxing in that its is technically a block but really preformed more like a slip.

[Chris Nagel]

Nice to see you around Thomas.

Good fighter's have that ability or perception or whatever you want to call it to feel the rhythm. If you can feel a guy's rythem, you can break it up, you can set it up, or at least you'll be more aware of what he's going to throw. This sounds almost esoteric but the ability comes from the realization of it when you see it happening, and the internalization of it though constant drilling and sparring.

Looking at Floyd's stance when it's turned to his right, his left shoulder usually rolls up high up high to block/deflect punches and sometimes he'll use his left arm to deflect them as well. That depends on the angle of the punch. Shots to the left side of his body are usually deflected upward and/or infront of him. When Mayweather's body is turned to the left his hight hand is held high with its elbow tucked in, so that these shots get blocked also, a few well placed shots will can get in, but at this point Floyd is rolling after the first punch connects.

I occasionally see the shoulder roll in use with the exception of fighters of James Toney and the like. I'm surprised a lot of trainers dismiss it when it has been working countless times before.

[Chris Nagel]

As a reminder to beginners, remember to keep your chin tucked behind your shoulder when performing the roll, if you don't you're defeating the purpose and defense of it. If your head sticks out your opponents will gladly oblige and hang a right hand on it.

[Von Milash]

of course, for beginners, nothing beats having two dukes up.

[Chris Nagel]

of course, for beginners, nothing beats having two dukes up.

You're right there, it's not perfect but it's good insurrance. I see fighters that drop their left for no reason and Boom-- what do ya know they eat a big right hand.

When you start paying close attention to what you are doing and the reasons why then you can experiment with new things that seem to break the rules. If you know what to expect, and what to do then you can prepare for it. Say you drop your left hand, or maybe your right hand, if you know what you are doing then you can provoke certain punches that you can counter them. That is a big part of what a lot of good fighters do, you may think you see an opening and when you go for it you can't see why you're getting hit. Of course when you put two really good fighters together and one of them trys to draw the other in with a gap in his defense and the other opponent is going to see how they can set him up using that.

Also I think reading you opponent's rhythm and other details is as close to mind reading as you're going to get.

[ThomasTabin]

Nice to see you around Thomas.

Good fighter's have that ability or perception or whatever you want to call it to feel the rhythm. If you can feel a guy's rythem, you can break it up, you can set it up, or at least you'll be more aware of what he's going to throw. This sounds almost esoteric but the ability comes from the realization of it when you see it happening, and the internalization of it though constant drilling and sparring.

Thats right. In basketball this sort of thing is called court vision. They say Larry Bird had incredible court vision and that he could visualize and see things on the court that other people simply couldn't. You can test (and this extends to everybody here) to see whether or not you have this ability by seeing if you can predict every punch a fighter throws before he throws it. This includes not only watching to see how he tips off his punches but in understanding what he is actually trying to do and accomplish at the strategic level. The second part there is what separates the plain old athlete from the larry birds of the world.

[Chris Nagel]

You know what? I was thinking about that too. This perception is hard to teach, it's really up to the fighter to put it together on his own. I'm just beginning to realize these kind of "modalities" when I really try to get into another fighters head.

I was thinking about the rhythm in different activities. You can find the sense that we're describing in football, basketball, dances, and other sports and activities. Not just perception but also the timing which makes a great fighter smooth in all his shifts and moves.

You've said in your posts a long while back that at their best fighter's body and mind are seemingly separate. The sense of being in the zone where you without analysing or thinking about it start to visualise the negotiation of rhythms, and movements. Now time and movement seems to be suspended in slow motion, and on a conscious level the person begins to shift the 'paths of possibilities' that they see before them.

Of course a lot of preparation is involved. Like Eisenhower said it's not so much importance of the plan as it is the process of planning. Insight is attained in which as much possibilities can be be understood and worked out, after which the mind and body have been trained to respond by the dynamic configurations as they develop in real time. This is where the connection to chess seems to come out. Though such dedicated research and the initial recognition of this flow The masterful boxer will be able how to prepare and train oneself in the first place.

[Chris Nagel]

Yeah I get your point now.

Guess what? The first time that he tried to do the shoulder roll he got nailed with a huge right. Eddy Futch corrected it the best he could. Roach was an ok fighter no contender or world beater though, but a few of the things he teaches are worth knowing.

I think one of the better trainers out there is Emanual Steward he only gives advice that he knows his fighter's will listen too. But I can't complain with the way Roach is training Pacquiao. Can you see Pacquiao doing the things that Mayweather is doing? Pacquiao has enough attributes and enough skill that he can upset a skilled boxer's rhythem without really outboxing the guy. It's like when Rocky Marciano fought guy's like Archie Moore.

The only guy that can give Pacquiao a lot of trouble is Marquez, and that's a fight we're all looking forward too.

[Olympian904]

I agree with you 100%