Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence

[Taeth]

I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.

I don't think there's much in common between Roy and Pernell.
Roy held his hands low, didn't really jab, he was extremely unorthodox.
Pernell was a textbook technical fighter. He could do flashy stuff too and showboat, but he was much more textbook than Roy.

Roy Jabbed enough. And Pernell is as far from a technical fighter as Graziano. He did throw good punches, but his defense style where he would go low and he would usually have his hands at his chest where Roy often had his. Anyways Pernell's defensive style was as far from orthodox as they came, and I doubt a handful of fighters could have foughten with his style.

[Taeth]

Most effective shoulder roll fighter is still Mayweather, then James Toney or Archie Moore then maybe Hopkins there are alot of guys who have done it, and another one is Travis Simms who has a pretty solid defense as well, and its the best defense for countering that I've seen.

[Tysonbruno]

I agree how Mayweather shoulder rolls is awesome he rarely takes a clean shot

[El Kabong]

.....no one has talked about Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles. Their defenses weren't all that bad.

[SweetPea]

I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.

I don't think there's much in common between Roy and Pernell.
Roy held his hands low, didn't really jab, he was extremely unorthodox.
Pernell was a textbook technical fighter. He could do flashy stuff too and showboat, but he was much more textbook than Roy.

Roy Jabbed enough. And Pernell is as far from a technical fighter as Graziano. He did throw good punches, but his defense style where he would go low and he would usually have his hands at his chest where Roy often had his. Anyways Pernell's defensive style was as far from orthodox as they came, and I doubt a handful of fighters could have foughten with his style.

I'm sure that most fighters couldn't have fought using Pernell's style.
My point was that Pernell's style didn't have much in common with Jones'.

[Chris Nagel]

.....no one has talked about Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles. Their defenses weren't all that bad.

I already pointed out Ezzard Charles, Charles Burley and the old timers in general. They were all pretty crafty. Walcott was pretty cagey too, no arguing that he also knew art of feinting and setting his opponent up.

[Tito BHB]

Reflexes aside... Personally considering that Roy Jones jr, Pernell etc are based more on reflex imo..

I would go with Bernard ..As his defence is less reflex or blocking then it is strategy and great movement..
Tarver fight for a great example.. The side to side movement and odd shoulder roll and the way he leaps in with his punches takes away other strategies from his opponent so that he stays in controll..

Toney... Some could argue james' defence is reflex ..But i personally would put it down to great ring experiance and ring smarts...He doesnt wait for the shot to be thrown he throws his first moves then throws again.. I get a greater impression he works off experiance and educated guesses etc..

And of course winky wright's defence is very good with his patient style and incredibly long arms just like in the trinidad fight you kind of get the feeling that not only is it frustrating to fight winky..
But its incredibly disheartening and mentally hard to find a way to get to winky..

[Chris Nagel]

Winky is pretty solid, he's hardly off balance, and how many times can you think of him in a bad angle. He hasn't committed to his shots until recent fights, and that'd give his opponents less to work with.

Hopkins knows what he's doing, he knows how to fight southpaws and any fighter by feinting and setting up his shots. The big thing is that he gets them to fight his kinda fight.

[sleeplessrevolution]

in my opinion, reflexes aside i think the 2nd best defense is still the "boxer stance" because it is more likely for a boxer to be hittable when his arms are put down than say a style like winky where his arms are always up and ready for a cover.

[Olympian904]

Winky and Floyd hands down.Defense is making your opponent miss and/or not taking scoring blows.

[Chris Nagel]

in my opinion, reflexes aside i think the 2nd best defense is still the "boxer stance" because it is more likely for a boxer to be hittable when his arms are put down than say a style like winky where his arms are always up and ready for a cover.

A good fighter will drop his arms to invite an attack that they'll counter, that's one way sucker a guy to throw a punch. Look at Archie Moore who's one of the earlier fighters to adopt a defense like Winky's. Moore had his hands up for most of the fight, but when he was trying to set them up he'd drop a hand or two.

I agree with Olympian, for the most part defense is making your opponent miss which weaves into setting your own attacks up.

In regards to a good defensive fighter worth mentioning is "the untouchable" Nocolino Locche. He reminded me of Willy Pep in a few respects, you couldn't land a jab on him with a machine gun, he could shoulder-roll, sucker a guy to throw a punch and turn the tables on them like the fighters before him.

Funny to think that all these moves, even the sharp perception of defense was almost universal in the 40's and 50's. Now it's seldom that you'll see a complete defensive package, but a few names these days bring back that old magic.

[Taeth]

I simply don't believe Willie Pep was the best defensive fighter if you tie in reflexes. I've seen a few fights where he isn't quite top level in terms of speed, and his style is too open, and Saddler beat the shit out of him a few times because of that.

[Taeth]

I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.

I don't think there's much in common between Roy and Pernell.
Roy held his hands low, didn't really jab, he was extremely unorthodox.
Pernell was a textbook technical fighter. He could do flashy stuff too and showboat, but he was much more textbook than Roy.

Roy Jabbed enough. And Pernell is as far from a technical fighter as Graziano. He did throw good punches, but his defense style where he would go low and he would usually have his hands at his chest where Roy often had his. Anyways Pernell's defensive style was as far from orthodox as they came, and I doubt a handful of fighters could have foughten with his style.

I'm sure that most fighters couldn't have fought using Pernell's style.
My point was that Pernell's style didn't have much in common with Jones'.

All I said was both their styles have their hands down, and they are daring thats it. THey don't move around the ring like Leonard but stand in front of the opponent and use their reflexes to dodge and counter opponents. At points like Roy vs. Toney or Pernell vs. Chavez they have run, but not really. Mayweather could also be put in this category, but like I said he blocks more shots with his arms than either of them.

[Chris Nagel]

ok I see what you mean.

It's not really daring, at least that's not the point, it's called "drawing". Let me briefly explain: say you want you want your opponent to throw something that you're looking to counter, you can either feint, or open your defense up so you can predict what they're going to throw. Now this isn't tp say that it works all the time, but it indespespensible, especially when alota guys are content on out-fighting (staying on the outside) and playing it safe. It really works well in countering, all fighters do it some extent, even Raf Marquez and alota good defensive fighters including Hopkins and others.

I never said he was the best, and I don't think Willy Pep think greatest defensive fighter ever, but he could do plenty of things defense as well as offense that the fighters now a day don't. Saddler was also a helluva fighter, he was pretty dirty in his fights with Pep, but he licked him none the less. Check out Benny Leonard, there's a clip on youtube just type in his name. Anyways Leonard could do things that encompass alot of defensive moves. He could switch his stance (drop-shift) which protects an angle, gets set, and avoids their lead. He could do all the things that I've mentioned drawing, feinting, crowding them to the point that he'd bet that his opponent's wouldn't mess a hair on his head. He had a nose like a sun-dial but after 200+ fights it didn't have a mark on it. How's that for defense?

[Taeth]

ok I see what you mean.

It's not really daring, at least that's not the point, it's called "drawing". Let me briefly explain: say you want you want your opponent to throw something that you're looking to counter, you can either feint, or open your defense up so you can predict what they're going to throw. Now this isn't tp say that it works all the time, but it indespespensible, especially when alota guys are content on out-fighting (staying on the outside) and playing it safe. It really works well in countering, all fighters do it some extent, even Raf Marquez and alota good defensive fighters including Hopkins and others.

I never said he was the best, and I don't think Willy Pep think greatest defensive fighter ever, but he could do plenty of things defense as well as offense that the fighters now a day don't. Saddler was also a helluva fighter, he was pretty dirty in his fights with Pep, but he licked him none the less. Check out Benny Leonard, there's a clip on youtube just type in his name. Anyways Leonard could do things that encompass alot of defensive moves. He could switch his stance (drop-shift) which protects an angle, gets set, and avoids their lead. He could do all the things that I've mentioned drawing, feinting, crowding them to the point that he'd bet that his opponent's wouldn't mess a hair on his head. He had a nose like a sun-dial but after 200+ fights it didn't have a mark on it. How's that for defense?

I understand drawing in opponents I'm a boxer, but what I am saying is if an average guy tries to do that they get hit everytime.