Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....

[Majesty]

" Juan Diaz.... Wins over Freitas and Julio Diaz don't make you P4P. Cotto had to beat Judah,Mosley,and 3 unbeaten future world champs(Torres,Paulie and QUintana) to get into P4P lists. Diaz is nowhere near that."

Posted this yesterday in the P4P thread. Some of us were rather premature in making Diaz a P4P. Listen to El Gamo next time. I asked why and no-one gave a response. I feel fully indicated now.

Hate to burst your bubble but Diaz deserved p4p status and im owas right behind Casamayor in the lightweights if not in some way ahead. You have to remember he held every other belt then the one Casamayor holds and he beat the champions Julio Diaz and acelino freitas and he deserved it. He was almost as close to a unified champ that the lightweight division has had since Mayweather and he deserves credit. Just because you don't hold Julio Diaz or Freitas in the same standards as Mosley doesn't mean he didnt deserve his p4p status.

You can't compare it to Cotto because Diaz beat the champions WHEN they were champs. And you're trying to give Cotto credit for what his opponents did after he beat them(Malignaggi and Quintana) and what they did 7 years before him(Mosley) You can't question Diaz because he beat the champs when they were champs and in the priome of their career while it can be argued that Cotto's opponents prime came after he faced them(Malignaggi and Quintana) or had already passed(Mosley)

So its incomparable. And I'm not saying it to bash you, I'm just saying slow your role

Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all.

You know how people take Floyd's career or Roy Jones career and disect it saying that the fighters he fought weren't as good as they would become when they fought them? Nobody really thinks much of Torres and felt like Holt got the short end of the stick. Torres is exciting but thats about it and a lot of people don't even feel like he deserves that title and that it was handed to him. Quintana is getting exposure because he beat Paul Williams whom many considered to be the next best welterweight next to mayweather. Quintana I'll give you as far as Mosley, I think Cotto mainly got there off of the name Shane Mosley for what he had done in the past as far a resume's go, but when you look at it Shane was in his late 30s and past his prime. Cotto has yet to beat a champion in their prime or at their best, unless you want to give him Quintana. But people like to say "oh people picked this guy to beat him so yeah" well people picked Hatton to beat Mayweather and Mayweather gets dissed because of it still so its a skewed logic that fans use to protect fighters they like, and then reverse it to ridicule fighters they don't like. Not that I'm accusing you of that I'm just stating


But back to the point, imo Juan Diaz deserved p4p he had 3 of the belts and was dominating Lightweight with the most consistancy i've seen in years. To throw all that away in light of a loss is kind of premature. Diaz was the -4- best at lightweight behind casamayor(who may or may not have it anymore and based off his last performance you'd have to place Diaz ahead of him)

So give credit where credit is due

[Julius Rain]

belts don't mean shyt, the juan p4p myth is a good example. thank you campbell for exposing the truth. if thats so then is campbell top p4p all of sudden? HELL NO!

[Majesty]

belts don't mean shyt, the juan p4p myth is a good example. thank you campbell for exposing the truth. if thats so then is campbell top p4p all of sudden? HELL NO!

You read my post right?

Diaz wasnt p4p for the belts alone. He was the most consistant impressive and winning lightweight for a time, and the belts were just icing on the cake. HE earned his p4p by dominating the champs in his division and being the most consistant. I only ranked casamayor above him in p4p but after casa's last performance i'd still have cas over him but not by much in terms of accomplishment.

Point is Diaz was dominating the lightweight division and like it or not next to casa was the best in it.

[Julius Rain]

You read my post right?

Diaz wasnt p4p for the belts alone. He was the most consistant impressive and winning lightweight for a time, and the belts were just icing on the cake. HE earned his p4p by dominating the champs in his division and being the most consistant. I only ranked casamayor above him in p4p but after casa's last performance i'd still have cas over him but not by much in terms of accomplishment.

Point is Diaz was dominating the lightweight division and like it or not next to casa was the best in it.

Honestly I didn't bother to read your whole post. Well yea juan dominate guys he beat. But he only dominated against jolio and freitas in the later rounds. It was a pretty close battle til the later rounds when juan had taken his oppenents spirit. He wasn't dominant for the whole fight, he was just the men standing by the end. So now that campbell has dominated him, where does campbell stand? he has the belt and he dominated juan.

[Majesty]

Honestly I didn't bother to read your whole post. Well yea juan dominate guys he beat. But he only dominated against jolio and freitas in the later rounds. It was a pretty close battle til the later rounds when juan had taken his oppenents spirit. He wasn't dominant for the whole fight, he was just the men standing by the end. So now that campbell has dominated him, where does campbell stand? he has the belt and he dominated juan.

Campbell is good but i wouldnt place him p4p until he goes on the kind of streak diaz did you also remember diaz is only like 24 years old and thats a lot to accomplish even at his age we havent even probably seen this kids prime yet! So why people are counting him out so early after all he's done so far is astonishing to me.

[Addicted to_boxing]

belts don't mean shyt, the juan p4p myth is a good example. thank you campbell for exposing the truth. if thats so then is campbell top p4p all of sudden? HELL NO!

So if Pac takes away JMM's belt today you won't mention that he is the ""New Champion"" ?
Yeah right ... Think Pac is plastered everywhere just imagine when he has the belt. Also as much of a draw that he is, the going rate will go up for his fights. So how is it that belts mean nothing ? They mean nothing to boxers with no personality or character. To those who do it is a pipeline to riches.

[Kev]

Hate to burst your bubble but Diaz deserved p4p status and im owas right behind Casamayor in the lightweights if not in some way ahead. You have to remember he held every other belt then the one Casamayor holds and he beat the champions Julio Diaz and acelino freitas and he deserved it. He was almost as close to a unified champ that the lightweight division has had since Mayweather and he deserves credit. Just because you don't hold Julio Diaz or Freitas in the same standards as Mosley doesn't mean he didnt deserve his p4p status.

You can't compare it to Cotto because Diaz beat the champions WHEN they were champs. And you're trying to give Cotto credit for what his opponents did after he beat them(Malignaggi and Quintana) and what they did 7 years before him(Mosley) You can't question Diaz because he beat the champs when they were champs and in the priome of their career while it can be argued that Cotto's opponents prime came after he faced them(Malignaggi and Quintana) or had already passed(Mosley)

So its incomparable. And I'm not saying it to bash you, I'm just saying slow your role

Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all.

You know how people take Floyd's career or Roy Jones career and disect it saying that the fighters he fought weren't as good as they would become when they fought them? Nobody really thinks much of Torres and felt like Holt got the short end of the stick. Torres is exciting but thats about it and a lot of people don't even feel like he deserves that title and that it was handed to him. Quintana is getting exposure because he beat Paul Williams whom many considered to be the next best welterweight next to mayweather. Quintana I'll give you as far as Mosley, I think Cotto mainly got there off of the name Shane Mosley for what he had done in the past as far a resume's go, but when you look at it Shane was in his late 30s and past his prime. Cotto has yet to beat a champion in their prime or at their best, unless you want to give him Quintana. But people like to say "oh people picked this guy to beat him so yeah" well people picked Hatton to beat Mayweather and Mayweather gets dissed because of it still so its a skewed logic that fans use to protect fighters they like, and then reverse it to ridicule fighters they don't like. Not that I'm accusing you of that I'm just stating


But back to the point, imo Juan Diaz deserved p4p he had 3 of the belts and was dominating Lightweight with the most consistancy i've seen in years. To throw all that away in light of a loss is kind of premature. Diaz was the -4- best at lightweight behind casamayor(who may or may not have it anymore and based off his last performance you'd have to place Diaz ahead of him)

So give credit where credit is due

Good posting Majesty. It's just absurd to try and retrospectively downgrade Juan Diaz based on his loss at the weekend.

Before the fight I would have had him at either 10, 11 or 12 competing with the likes of Ivan Calderon, Kelly Pavlik, Kessler and Hatton for thos fringe p4p slots.

He was seen as THE man in the lightweight division with an ultra exciting style and had KO'd two of the top men in the division, in fact forcing them to quit.

He's only 24 and was already making his 10th world title defense! He was the reigning WBC, IBF AND WBO world champ which meant he held the most belts of any current fighter.

So my question to Gamo is apart from your superb intuition what led you to deduce he didn't deserve p4p status?

9 straight title defenses, holding three of the 4 title belts and still only 24 IS p4p status.

What makes ma laugh though as if that you will place unproven stars like Christian Mijares who has one single win over a name opponent above him and yet be convinced you were right in your assessment.

Before the Cambell fight Diaz was either 10 or 11 p4p imo, the case between him and Calderon could go either way.

But he WAS above Mijares, Kessler, possibly Hatton and maybe Pavlik and Marquez as well.

He lost and now drops a few places but he had most definitely earned his status previously.

[donnydarkoIRL]

I don't think Campbell ended his career.

[:::PSL:::]

I don't think Campbell ended his career.

hitmandonny

[donnydarkoIRL]

hitmandonny

What?

There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?

[El Gamo]

hitmandonny

What?

There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?

No-one said he was ruined,it merely highlighted the FACT that people who were saying he was P4P were either bandwagon jumpers,had never seen him and followed the crowd or were genuine fans(Oumafan is the only one that comes to mind)

No-one said he was ruined,but he lost a fight he was HUGELY favoured to win,v a 36 year old who any P4P fighter should have dealt with adequately. General consensus was Diaz would win,easy or not,he would win. Well,he didn't.

Facts are facts.He's young.He can come back. But as before the fight and even more so after it,there are fighters out there who have accomplished more and certainly fought better fighters,and were and no so again,are,far more worthy of P4P status.

And Majesty,I'm not getting into a debate with you.It's pointless. You remind me of Starr/PGH angel eyes:debating with them is as enjoyable and productive as banging my head against a brick wall.

[Kev]

hitmandonny

What?

There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?

No-one said he was ruined,it merely highlighted the FACT that people who were saying he was P4P were either bandwagon jumpers,had never seen him and followed the crowd or were genuine fans(Oumafan is the only one that comes to mind)

No-one said he was ruined,but he lost a fight he was HUGELY favoured to win,v a 36 year old who any P4P fighter should have dealt with adequately. General consensus was Diaz would win,easy or not,he would win. Well,he didn't.

Facts are facts.He's young.He can come back. But as before the fight and even more so after it,there are fighters out there who have accomplished more and certainly fought better fighters,and were and no so again,are,far more worthy of P4P status.

And Majesty,I'm not getting into a debate with you.It's pointless. You remind me of Starr/PGH angel eyes:debating with them is as enjoyable and productive as banging my head against a brick wall.

What has Majesty said to merit personal abuse other than disagree with you

Incidently what was your top 20 prior to the Campbell fight?

The loss to Cambell was a shock, but you can't backwards rationalise his acomplishments. What if Ivan Calderon, Kelly Pavlik, Ricky Hatton, Kessler, Cotto etc all lose their next fights, does that mean it was a laughable joke that they were considered fringe p4p stars as well?

Please I'm curious to know of all the dozens of fighters you think deserved to be higher than Diaz before last weekend based on merit?

you make it sound like he was an overratted club fighter but I expect even you would have had him in your top 15, only hating could convince otherwise.

Please show me all the other guys outside the top 10 who had compiled an undefeated record, had won 3/4 of all the recognised title belts in his division, and in succesive fights had forced a future Hall of Famer and a reigning world champ to quit on their stools from the relentless torture he was dishing out?

Show me all these other fighters who had made 9 straight defenses, still at only 24 and had virtually cleaned up their division in terms of belts and yet were nowhere in the p4p rankings?

You're just plain hating. Ok so he may have been only 13th in the p4p list and not 10th but to make a post ridiculing all those who had him 3 places higher than you did just makes you look like a moron.

No offense.

[donnydarkoIRL]

[quote=El Gamo;479870]

hitmandonny

What?

There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?

No-one said he was ruined,it merely highlighted the FACT that people who were saying he was P4P were either bandwagon jumpers,had never seen him and followed the crowd or were genuine fans(Oumafan is the only one that comes to mind)

No-one said he was ruined,but he lost a fight he was HUGELY favoured to win,v a 36 year old who any P4P fighter should have dealt with adequately. General consensus was Diaz would win,easy or not,he would win. Well,he didn't.

Facts are facts.He's young.He can come back. But as before the fight and even more so after it,there are fighters out there who have accomplished more and certainly fought better fighters,and were and no so again,are,far more worthy of P4P status.
[quote]
So is that the purpose of the thread to highlight peoples mistakes?

The common consensus was that Diaz would win, but in truth a lot of Boxing fans had picked Campell. Violent Demise and Mick for example each picked Campbell. Any man who steps into a boxing ring has a chance of beating an opponent of the same weight, so in reality it's not all that surprising. After all when viewed subjectively each man ebntering the ring has a 1 in 2 chance of winning. So the common consensus has little bearing on Diaz, in fact it acts much more as a reflection against the general boxing public for having such faith in one fighter.

Pound for Pound lists are personal. Everyone's should be unique and a reflection of their own personal tastes and exposures. Let people have their lists.

[CutMeMick]

But he WAS above Mijares, Kessler, possibly Hatton and maybe Pavlik and Marquez as well.

You have got to be kidding.....
Diaz P4P better then Mijares and Marquez.
I can see him above Kess, Hatton.
I even have a tough time typing that he's P4P better then Pavlik.

[Kev]

You have got to be kidding.....
Diaz P4P better then Mijares and Marquez.
I can see him above Kess, Hatton.
I even have a tough time typing that he's P4P better then Pavlik.

Not now Mick I mean before the Campbell fight.

24 years old, 9 straight defenses. IBF, WBA and WBO lightweight champion, closest to a unified champ in the whole of boxing at that time.

How the fuck had Mijares done more, beat an overhyped Jorge Arce?


With Hatton and Marquez both losing their last fights, a case could have been made for an unbeaten Diaz to nip above them in the rankings.

Agreed hes slipped a few now, but any talk of him not being close to p4p before is just retropsective fudge talk. He had earned his spot, the only 3 belt world champ in boxing, unbeaten, and preparing for his 10th straight world title defense.

To say he wasnt close to p4p based on merit is just hating imo