Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....

[jsabelino]

" Juan Diaz.... Wins over Freitas and Julio Diaz don't make you P4P. Cotto had to beat Judah,Mosley,and 3 unbeaten future world champs(Torres,Paulie and QUintana) to get into P4P lists. Diaz is nowhere near that."

Posted this yesterday in the P4P thread. Some of us were rather premature in making Diaz a P4P. Listen to El Gamo next time. I asked why and no-one gave a response. I feel fully indicated now.

agree

[Majesty]

" Juan Diaz.... Wins over Freitas and Julio Diaz don't make you P4P. Cotto had to beat Judah,Mosley,and 3 unbeaten future world champs(Torres,Paulie and QUintana) to get into P4P lists. Diaz is nowhere near that."

Posted this yesterday in the P4P thread. Some of us were rather premature in making Diaz a P4P. Listen to El Gamo next time. I asked why and no-one gave a response. I feel fully indicated now.

Hate to burst your bubble but Diaz deserved p4p status and im owas right behind Casamayor in the lightweights if not in some way ahead. You have to remember he held every other belt then the one Casamayor holds and he beat the champions Julio Diaz and acelino freitas and he deserved it. He was almost as close to a unified champ that the lightweight division has had since Mayweather and he deserves credit. Just because you don't hold Julio Diaz or Freitas in the same standards as Mosley doesn't mean he didnt deserve his p4p status.

You can't compare it to Cotto because Diaz beat the champions WHEN they were champs. And you're trying to give Cotto credit for what his opponents did after he beat them(Malignaggi and Quintana) and what they did 7 years before him(Mosley) You can't question Diaz because he beat the champs when they were champs and in the priome of their career while it can be argued that Cotto's opponents prime came after he faced them(Malignaggi and Quintana) or had already passed(Mosley)

So its incomparable. And I'm not saying it to bash you, I'm just saying slow your role

Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all.

You know how people take Floyd's career or Roy Jones career and disect it saying that the fighters he fought weren't as good as they would become when they fought them? Nobody really thinks much of Torres and felt like Holt got the short end of the stick. Torres is exciting but thats about it and a lot of people don't even feel like he deserves that title and that it was handed to him. Quintana is getting exposure because he beat Paul Williams whom many considered to be the next best welterweight next to mayweather. Quintana I'll give you as far as Mosley, I think Cotto mainly got there off of the name Shane Mosley for what he had done in the past as far a resume's go, but when you look at it Shane was in his late 30s and past his prime. Cotto has yet to beat a champion in their prime or at their best, unless you want to give him Quintana. But people like to say "oh people picked this guy to beat him so yeah" well people picked Hatton to beat Mayweather and Mayweather gets dissed because of it still so its a skewed logic that fans use to protect fighters they like, and then reverse it to ridicule fighters they don't like. Not that I'm accusing you of that I'm just stating


But back to the point, imo Juan Diaz deserved p4p he had 3 of the belts and was dominating Lightweight with the most consistancy i've seen in years. To throw all that away in light of a loss is kind of premature. Diaz was the -4- best at lightweight behind casamayor(who may or may not have it anymore and based off his last performance you'd have to place Diaz ahead of him)

So give credit where credit is due

[Julius Rain]

belts don't mean shyt, the juan p4p myth is a good example. thank you campbell for exposing the truth. if thats so then is campbell top p4p all of sudden? HELL NO!

[Majesty]

belts don't mean shyt, the juan p4p myth is a good example. thank you campbell for exposing the truth. if thats so then is campbell top p4p all of sudden? HELL NO!

You read my post right?

Diaz wasnt p4p for the belts alone. He was the most consistant impressive and winning lightweight for a time, and the belts were just icing on the cake. HE earned his p4p by dominating the champs in his division and being the most consistant. I only ranked casamayor above him in p4p but after casa's last performance i'd still have cas over him but not by much in terms of accomplishment.

Point is Diaz was dominating the lightweight division and like it or not next to casa was the best in it.

[Julius Rain]

You read my post right?

Diaz wasnt p4p for the belts alone. He was the most consistant impressive and winning lightweight for a time, and the belts were just icing on the cake. HE earned his p4p by dominating the champs in his division and being the most consistant. I only ranked casamayor above him in p4p but after casa's last performance i'd still have cas over him but not by much in terms of accomplishment.

Point is Diaz was dominating the lightweight division and like it or not next to casa was the best in it.

Honestly I didn't bother to read your whole post. Well yea juan dominate guys he beat. But he only dominated against jolio and freitas in the later rounds. It was a pretty close battle til the later rounds when juan had taken his oppenents spirit. He wasn't dominant for the whole fight, he was just the men standing by the end. So now that campbell has dominated him, where does campbell stand? he has the belt and he dominated juan.

[Majesty]

Honestly I didn't bother to read your whole post. Well yea juan dominate guys he beat. But he only dominated against jolio and freitas in the later rounds. It was a pretty close battle til the later rounds when juan had taken his oppenents spirit. He wasn't dominant for the whole fight, he was just the men standing by the end. So now that campbell has dominated him, where does campbell stand? he has the belt and he dominated juan.

Campbell is good but i wouldnt place him p4p until he goes on the kind of streak diaz did you also remember diaz is only like 24 years old and thats a lot to accomplish even at his age we havent even probably seen this kids prime yet! So why people are counting him out so early after all he's done so far is astonishing to me.

[Kev]

Hate to burst your bubble but Diaz deserved p4p status and im owas right behind Casamayor in the lightweights if not in some way ahead. You have to remember he held every other belt then the one Casamayor holds and he beat the champions Julio Diaz and acelino freitas and he deserved it. He was almost as close to a unified champ that the lightweight division has had since Mayweather and he deserves credit. Just because you don't hold Julio Diaz or Freitas in the same standards as Mosley doesn't mean he didnt deserve his p4p status.

You can't compare it to Cotto because Diaz beat the champions WHEN they were champs. And you're trying to give Cotto credit for what his opponents did after he beat them(Malignaggi and Quintana) and what they did 7 years before him(Mosley) You can't question Diaz because he beat the champs when they were champs and in the priome of their career while it can be argued that Cotto's opponents prime came after he faced them(Malignaggi and Quintana) or had already passed(Mosley)

So its incomparable. And I'm not saying it to bash you, I'm just saying slow your role

Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all.

You know how people take Floyd's career or Roy Jones career and disect it saying that the fighters he fought weren't as good as they would become when they fought them? Nobody really thinks much of Torres and felt like Holt got the short end of the stick. Torres is exciting but thats about it and a lot of people don't even feel like he deserves that title and that it was handed to him. Quintana is getting exposure because he beat Paul Williams whom many considered to be the next best welterweight next to mayweather. Quintana I'll give you as far as Mosley, I think Cotto mainly got there off of the name Shane Mosley for what he had done in the past as far a resume's go, but when you look at it Shane was in his late 30s and past his prime. Cotto has yet to beat a champion in their prime or at their best, unless you want to give him Quintana. But people like to say "oh people picked this guy to beat him so yeah" well people picked Hatton to beat Mayweather and Mayweather gets dissed because of it still so its a skewed logic that fans use to protect fighters they like, and then reverse it to ridicule fighters they don't like. Not that I'm accusing you of that I'm just stating


But back to the point, imo Juan Diaz deserved p4p he had 3 of the belts and was dominating Lightweight with the most consistancy i've seen in years. To throw all that away in light of a loss is kind of premature. Diaz was the -4- best at lightweight behind casamayor(who may or may not have it anymore and based off his last performance you'd have to place Diaz ahead of him)

So give credit where credit is due

Good posting Majesty. It's just absurd to try and retrospectively downgrade Juan Diaz based on his loss at the weekend.

Before the fight I would have had him at either 10, 11 or 12 competing with the likes of Ivan Calderon, Kelly Pavlik, Kessler and Hatton for thos fringe p4p slots.

He was seen as THE man in the lightweight division with an ultra exciting style and had KO'd two of the top men in the division, in fact forcing them to quit.

He's only 24 and was already making his 10th world title defense! He was the reigning WBC, IBF AND WBO world champ which meant he held the most belts of any current fighter.

So my question to Gamo is apart from your superb intuition what led you to deduce he didn't deserve p4p status?

9 straight title defenses, holding three of the 4 title belts and still only 24 IS p4p status.

What makes ma laugh though as if that you will place unproven stars like Christian Mijares who has one single win over a name opponent above him and yet be convinced you were right in your assessment.

Before the Cambell fight Diaz was either 10 or 11 p4p imo, the case between him and Calderon could go either way.

But he WAS above Mijares, Kessler, possibly Hatton and maybe Pavlik and Marquez as well.

He lost and now drops a few places but he had most definitely earned his status previously.

[donnydarkoIRL]

I don't think Campbell ended his career.

[CutMeMick]

But he WAS above Mijares, Kessler, possibly Hatton and maybe Pavlik and Marquez as well.

You have got to be kidding.....
Diaz P4P better then Mijares and Marquez.
I can see him above Kess, Hatton.
I even have a tough time typing that he's P4P better then Pavlik.

[:::PSL:::]

I don't think Campbell ended his career.

hitmandonny

[Kev]

You have got to be kidding.....
Diaz P4P better then Mijares and Marquez.
I can see him above Kess, Hatton.
I even have a tough time typing that he's P4P better then Pavlik.

Not now Mick I mean before the Campbell fight.

24 years old, 9 straight defenses. IBF, WBA and WBO lightweight champion, closest to a unified champ in the whole of boxing at that time.

How the fuck had Mijares done more, beat an overhyped Jorge Arce?


With Hatton and Marquez both losing their last fights, a case could have been made for an unbeaten Diaz to nip above them in the rankings.

Agreed hes slipped a few now, but any talk of him not being close to p4p before is just retropsective fudge talk. He had earned his spot, the only 3 belt world champ in boxing, unbeaten, and preparing for his 10th straight world title defense.

To say he wasnt close to p4p based on merit is just hating imo

[Wayne]

Ice, it wasn't a headbutt that caused the cut, it was a punch

Actually, it was a headbutt. It was opened up even further by a punch. Watch the 2nd round again and you'll see Campbell's head come rocketing into Diaz's.

And I might still put Diaz in my p4p list. I'm not so quick to write him off on the basis of one fight. I think if he has a rematch clause he should exercise it and he'll take his belt back.

Did you throw Shane Mosley off you p4p list after he lost to Forrest? How about when RJJ got DQ'd against Montell Griffin?

Shame on anyone who was so quick to throw him over. Diaz had 1 of 2 things going wrong for him Saturday night. His buzzsaw style was effectively blunted against a slick fighter who can take a punch and he wasn't Nate Campbell. Let's face it, Campbell is pretty much a back-to-the-wall kind of fighter. At 36 he's pretty much at the ass end of his career considering the division he's in, he's been to the top and failed twice before and he couldn't get any farther away from home than Diaz's mother country. Did you hear the ring music Campbell in with? Damn right he knew he had to seize the moment or it was OVER. Campbell trained like his life depended on it and poured everything he had in him on the canvas. Diaz is more than a decade younger than Campbell, had already been a champ for a while and, his own fault, has other things to fall back on. Campbell was pretty much in fight-or-die mode and Diaz had no reason to think that way.

And the cut he gave Diaz didn't hurt, either.

Notice how different the tone of the fight was after that. Diaz has never fought that tired-looking before. And before anyone begins to question his heart remember how Shane Mosley pretty much broke down after he got cut from a head butt in the Forrest fight? He'd never been cut like that before and I'd bet if it happened in another fight he'd be better prepared to deal with it. And his corner would come with actual coagulant instead of that Visine crap.

I say Diaz exercises a rematch clause immediately and you will see a totally different fight. Campbell has made it to the mountaintop and that razor's edge in him is dulled somewhat. Diaz will have to commit to boxing in a way he hadn't for Saturday night and will be truer to form. For a while he was showing progressive improvement in his defense and he showed none of that against Campbell, Diaz (largely because his offense was his defense) & Freitas.

I knew this kid was something special when I saw what he did against Cotto.

He needs to sit mother, father & trainer down and explain to them that law school doesn't pay the bills, but boxing makes ends meet several times over. He needs--and this is the scary part because the structure may be part of his success--to move out on his own. Law school isn't going away and he can quit boxing anytime. But trying to do both may be too much weight for him to carry.

[El Gamo]

You have got to be kidding.....
Diaz P4P better then Mijares and Marquez.
I can see him above Kess, Hatton.
I even have a tough time typing that he's P4P better then Pavlik.

Exactly. I can't believe these bandwagon jumpers. A guy has an 0,a few titles and all of a sudden,he's P4P.It's rather embaressing.


Majesty wrote:Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all."

To be honest,I stopped reading after that. I've seen MANY knowledgeable boxing writers and members here at Saddo's and other forums say Cotto would lose to Paulie,Quintana,Mosley etc. So your statement goes out of the window.

Bilbo wrote: So my question to Gamo is apart from your superb intuition what led you to deduce he didn't deserve p4p status?

9 straight title defenses, holding three of the 4 title belts and still only 24 IS p4p status.

What makes ma laugh though as if that you will place unproven stars like Christian Mijares who has one single win over a name opponent above him and yet be convinced you were right in your assessment."


Riiiiiiight.....so...show me 1,ONE,list where I have written Mijares ABOVE Diaz in the top 10. go ahead. You won't find one,you know why? Because I HAVENT. What makes your assessment even more embaressing is Mijares has as many or almost as many good wins as Diaz:

Jose Navarro
Arce
Kawashima in his backyard TWICE.
Munoz next in a unification.

So stop downplaying Mijares when you have not obviously not seen/dont
know about him.


Oh and Calderon had something like 12 title defences and didn't lose,moved and beat the NUMBER1 guy in that division. Seriously folks,keep it real. Stop making yourselves look foolish. You jumped on the bandwagon,the bandwagon was derailed,stop clutching at straws writing essays to make yourself feel better. Diaz was a very good fighter,who was absolutely not top10 P4P and the Camblee fight proved it. A fight he should have won and he lost.On the other hand,you have guys like Calderon who get shafted because fans dont' know anything about them.Next time,try some research.

[Julius Rain]

im with gamo.

diaz like you guys said is still young only 24, he has time to really improve but i never counted him as top ten p4p. the belt doesn't mean much, he never really dominated the whole fight he just out lasted guys. maybe cause of his age being the younger fighter. Now that campbell has expose his one demensional way, look at how not p4p he really is.

To me it doesn't even matter how many titles or how many good wins you have. As long as you show how good you are. Now look at ivan and mijares, they don't have as much hype but if we were to put ivan or mijares against juan if they were the say weight. I'd go for both ivan and mijares to take juan to school and get beaten far worst then how campbell beat juan.

From now on though, IMO juan will just be like rocky juarez, he won't be gun shy but won't really be elite due to lack of game plan b or c.

[CutMeMick]

Not now Mick I mean before the Campbell fight.
24 years old, 9 straight defenses. IBF, WBA and WBO lightweight champion, closest to a unified champ in the whole of boxing at that time.

Last I checked age had nothing to do with P4P status....
The fact that Acelinos the biggest name on his resume speaks for itself.

How the fuck had Mijares done more, beat an overhyped Jorge Arce?

Not sure if you realize this mate but Arces a future Hall of Famer.
Wether YOU agree with it or not is another story but fact is hes going to Canastota. You call Arce over hyped that is absurd as he showed fight in and fight out that he stepped in the ring to fight and try to win.
If I remember correctly in another thread you made a comment about Mijares fighting to a draw with Maldonado whom I'm pretty sure you said wait that names sounds familiar and you went searching and clicking on names on BoxRec and you found out he has since then lost to Vic and to Nonito not having seen the fight you thought it'd be smart of you to mention that Mijares fought to a draw agains that same guy...
Look for the fight and watch it tell me if you think Maldonado fought the same. Truth is Maldonado was on one that night and IMO fought his ass off. Mijares himself didn't fight his fight and let off. No excuses hes bounced back and has beaten 2 World Class guys in Arce and Kawashima.

What makes me laugh is that you yourself have said plenty times that you don't rate the small guys and that you could beat them and punch them into the next world Buuuuut you sure as hell like to comment on them and make comments on how much they suck and don't deserve things. For someone whos not interested in the smaller guys you sure type like if you follow them closely....

With Hatton and Marquez both losing their last fights, a case could have been made for an unbeaten Diaz to nip above them in the rankings.

Because you loose a fight DOES NOT necessairly mean your off the P4P list. (This can depend on several things the way the fight went, who you lost to etc. etc.)

To say he wasnt close to p4p based on merit is just hating imo

Well Bilbs I never one said he wasn't close to P4P.
I've never rated him but if I had to rate him pre-Nate fight I would guess somewhere around 11-16.