No matter who he beats, can calzaghe be the lbs4lbs greatest?

[donnydarkoIRL]

Lately he's made a great arguement for his ATG status though. I feel he is certainly an ATG Super Middleweight, although that is helped by the lack of history in the division I guess.

[buhlestnoble]

Fair points and a well constructed argument Hitmandonny BUT I don’t think joe has ever really been a KO artist, certainly not a one puch KO artist, most of his stoppages have come through volume of punches…TKOs. He still hits hard, he hurt Kessler.

Hitmandonny who has the best physical game in the sport in your opinion then? Mayweather? He has shown physical fragility over the years particularly regarding his hands

Also I don’t know how you can judge that his punch resistance has diminished, he has been in with some big hitters recently in Kessler and lacy and stood up superbly.

Judging his power on the Kessler fight is difficult. Kessler has never been down as an amateur or a pro. Bika has never lost by KO even to a regarded heavy hitter in Lucian Bute. Lacy has shown to have a great chin aswell.

The bottom line, most championship fights between the very best boxers end up going the distance like jones v Hopkins, mayweather vs de la hoya, calzaghe v Kessler. This is why mayweathers record doesn’t have the best KO % as he has fought so many championship bouts, this is why calzaghes KO% in recent fights has been lower than his average, he has been fighting the very best opposition, most good fighters have good chins. Mayweathers lowish KO% doesnt mean he cant punch, look what happened to hatton. In the end hatton’s assumption that mayweather couldn’t hurt him was a fatal error in his tactics and preparation. Hopkins wont make that mistake against Calzaghe that’s for sure, if he does he will end up on his back!

I think its hard to say that calzaghes power has diminished because of his hands. When they are broken or hurting then yes, he takes something off his punches consciously. Although, I don’t believe calzaghe takes weight of his biggest punches in a fight based on fear for his hands. When a fighter goes for the big shots there is no time for doubt or consciously only putting say 90% effort into your powershots. The day that happens the day you lose and end up on your back. His hands were fine against Kessler and I am sure he put everything into his shots, any apparent loss of power probably wouldn’t have anything to do with his hands. People said the same of mayweather and his hands and look what happened to hatton. A fighters natural KO power is probably the last thing that he loses as he ages. Certainly its always a threat in the first few founds while a fighters stamina is still there.

[ICB]

Fair points and a well constructed argument Hitmandonny BUT I don’t think joe has ever really been a KO artist, certainly not a one puch KO artist, most of his stoppages have come through volume of punches…TKOs. He still hits hard, he hurt Kessler.

Hitmandonny who has the best physical game in the sport in your opinion then? Mayweather? He has shown physical fragility over the years particularly regarding his hands

Also I don’t know how you can judge that his punch resistance has diminished, he has been in with some big hitters recently in Kessler and lacy and stood up superbly.

Judging his power on the Kessler fight is difficult. Kessler has never been down as an amateur or a pro. Bika has never lost by KO even to a regarded heavy hitter in Lucian Bute. Lacy has shown to have a great chin aswell.

The bottom line, most championship fights between the very best boxers end up going the distance like jones v Hopkins, mayweather vs de la hoya, calzaghe v Kessler. This is why mayweathers record doesn’t have the best KO % as he has fought so many championship bouts, this is why calzaghes KO% in recent fights has been lower than his average, he has been fighting the very best opposition, most good fighters have good chins. Mayweathers lowish KO% doesnt mean he cant punch, look what happened to hatton. In the end hatton’s assumption that mayweather couldn’t hurt him was a fatal error in his tactics and preparation. Hopkins wont make that mistake against Calzaghe that’s for sure, if he does he will end up on his back!

I think its hard to say that calzaghes power has diminished because of his hands. When they are broken or hurting then yes, he takes something off his punches consciously. Although, I don’t believe calzaghe takes weight of his biggest punches in a fight based on fear for his hands. When a fighter goes for the big shots there is no time for doubt or consciously only putting say 90% effort into your powershots. The day that happens the day you lose and end up on your back. His hands were fine against Kessler and I am sure he put everything into his shots, any apparent loss of power probably wouldn’t have anything to do with his hands. People said the same of mayweather and his hands and look what happened to hatton. A fighters natural KO power is probably the last thing that he loses as he ages. Certainly its always a threat in the first few founds while a fighters stamina is still there.

You say Calzaghe was in with a big puncher like Lacy but Lacy never hit him mate lets be honest. But i do agree there is nothing wrong with Calzaghe's punch resistance. He was hit with huge uppercuts from Kessler and he never even looked close to going down. Calzaghe's power has certainly got worse over the year's. In fact Calzaghe's last KO was in 1997 before he was even champion.

And as for this Calzaghe vs Mayweather debate no way does Calzaghe pass Mayweather in P4P rankings unless Mayweather loses. Mayweather has won 5 world titles in 5 different weight classes, he also has much better wins than Calzaghe has let me give you an example.

Mayweather's best Wins.

Genaro Hernandez
Zab Judah
Angel Manfredy
Carlos Hernandez
ODLH
Ricky Hatton
Diego Corrales
Jesus Chavez
Jose Luis Castillo x2
Arturo Gatti
Phillip Ndou

Joe Calzaghe's best Wins

Robin Reid
Chris Eubank
Charles Brewer
Mario Veit x2
Jeff Lacy
Mikkel Kessler
Byron Mitchell
Richie Woodhall
Sakio Bika

Im sorry but Calzaghe's resume is nowhere near as good as Mayweather's. And after Mayweather beats ODLH again he will fight Miguel Cotto and beat him IMO. Then no matter what Calzaghe does he won't be P4P number 1 unless Mayweather loses. All these people saying *Calzaghe will be P4P number 1 if*. But do you think when Calzaghe is fighting Pavlik or etc, that Mayweather won't be fighting in a big fight of his own ?? and plus P4P Mayweather is a better fighter than Calzaghe is.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Buhlestnoble:
In his early career Joe hit hard. Chris Eubank recorded in his auto biography that Calzaghe gave him a painful war in which he impressed the former Champ. With several stoppages in a row, Joe began to punch with less conviction when his recurring hand problems became a great hinderence.

Against a puncher like Kessler it is inevitable that at one stage or another you will be hurt. Calzaghe however, looked more subceptible to punishment than he ever did. And he said afterward he had been hurt badly on a number of occasions.

Calzaghe himself has said that he has altered his punch technique in order to preserve his brittle hands. In order to prove this theory all one has to do is compare his recent fights with his first twenty in which he was a conventional puncher who always went for the stoppage

When questioned who I feel is the best physical guy in the sport I first must contest that I said the best combination of boxing thought and physicality.

However the best physical athlete may be Pacquiao, although his thought leaves something to be desired.

Mayweather deserves the pound for pound mantel.

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

Buhlestnoble:
In his early career Joe hit hard. Chris Eubank recorded in his auto biography that Calzaghe gave him a painful war in which he impressed the former Champ. With several stoppages in a row, Joe began to punch with less conviction when his recurring hand problems became a great hinderence.

Against a puncher like Kessler it is inevitable that at one stage or another you will be hurt. Calzaghe however, looked more subceptible to punishment than he ever did. And he said afterward he had been hurt badly on a number of occasions.

Calzaghe himself has said that he has altered his punch technique in order to preserve his brittle hands. In order to prove this theory all one has to do is compare his recent fights with his first twenty in which he was a conventional puncher who always went for the stoppage

When questioned who I feel is the best physical guy in the sport I first must contest that I said the best combination of boxing thought and physicality.

However the best physical athlete may be Pacquiao, although his thought leaves something to be desired.

Mayweather deserves the pound for pound mantel.

Yeah, both those guys can't even be argued about for one and two. You've got both types of physicality in those fighters... Pac is a swarming guy who has a tendancy to bully... He has been polished quite a bit under Roach's tutalage, though. Floyd, although thought of as a "puncher" early in his career(it's funny... I was watching his first 2 pro fights yesterday and they were preaching about how he's a pure puncher) he has the physical gifts to not have to be... He doesn't need to put himself in harm's way anymore to deal damage. He still has power even moving devisions... Although he does pile up accumilation punches he can still KO a guy when he has to (a la Hatton).

[donnydarkoIRL]

Early in his career Mayweather could be viewed as one of the premier punches in his division and even today, if there is a fighter who can stop you at Welterweight it would be Floyd. So I agree with you there Pride.

I also agree that Pacquiao has been polished by Roach.
Many including myself have taken a dim view of some of Roach's mannorisms before fights (abandoning fighters) but he has worked well for Pacquiao.

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

Early in his career Mayweather could be viewed as one of the premier punches in his division and even today, if there is a fighter who can stop you at Welterweight it would be Floyd. So I agree with you there Pride.

I also agree that Pacquiao has been polished by Roach.
Many including myself have taken a dim view of some of Roach's mannorisms before fights (abandoning fighters) but he has worked well for Pacquiao.

Yeah, Roach pisses me off with his Mercinary ways of late. I give Roach credit for polishing Pac but he was already such a tremendous athlete before he ended up at the Wildcard, I don't give him all of it.

I think Roach is a good trainer but not as good as people give him credit for.

He, for some reason thinks he can jump in with a fighter 6 weeks before a fight and turn mold him into what he wants.

He's not Jesus Christ. It takes top level trainers years to get to know a fighter and it irks me that he takes exhorbidant amounts of money to take a fighter on short notice and leaves his stable waiting in the wings...

This is not the type of person I would want training me... a friggin mercenary...

He says him and Pac are like best friends and Roach is even a father figure... It's cuz it's his meal ticket. He has very little loyalty to fighters...

You don't have the guys like Cus and Dundee anymore that will BE THERE nomatter what kind of shit goes down.

Roach gets a phonecall from Delahoya and (not that I blame him a whole lot but he screwed Manfredo) next thing you know Peter is fighting in a world title fight in front of 45000 hostile fans across an ocean from home.... Without his security blanket. He lost alot of my respect April 7th 2007.

That's just me though

[buhlestnoble]

Fair play hitmandonny your entitled to your view and I cant really prove anything against it but I don’t really agree that calzaghe hasn’t really been punching since late 1990s. Changing his technique and saying this is why he doesn’t KO anymore certainly isn’t something I have heard joe talk about often if not at all. But the stats do show more Kos early in his career although I believe this was because generally the standard of opponent was lower.

On the p4p list calzaghe moves ahead of pacquiao on my list to no 2 if he beats Hopkins and certainly if he fights and beats say pavlik

[donnydarkoIRL]

Fair play hitmandonny your entitled to your view and I cant really prove anything against it but I don’t really agree that calzaghe hasn’t really been punching since late 1990s. Changing his technique and saying this is why he doesn’t KO anymore certainly isn’t something I have heard joe talk about often if not at all. But the stats do show more Kos early in his career although I believe this was because generally the standard of opponent was lower.

On the p4p list calzaghe moves ahead of pacquiao on my list to no 2 if he beats Hopkins and certainly if he fights and beats say pavlik

Well my belief was primarily founded after the Ashira bout.
Calzaghe started very strong and the commentators speculated that he wanted an early night. He punched very conventionally and looked like he was going to finish early until the break in the hand. After that he trew only the right hand.

After that fight there was an interview with Enzo, who said usually they punched differently so as to avoid hand damage.

Actually now that I think of it, Enzo spends so long teaching his boxers proper punching technique (with the shoulder) he would be rather annoyed at his star pupil for arm punching if they hadn't planned it wouldn't he?

And you may well be right about Calzaghe passing PAC INTO NUMBER 2. iT'S A CLOSE RACE.