Why I hate the P4P rankings

[Deanrw]

I have stated it here before. I will never look at a pound for pound list as I find it's methodology totally unfair. It is built mainly on popularity and politics IMO and many fighters, who are great fighters, will always get overlooked.

Some careers are so carefully guided and timed, that they can get placed on the list just by beating someone currently on the list, no matter how faded the person on the list is. Others on the list, will steadily climb that list as long as they keep winning (even against lesser competition) and others above them retire or get beaten.

Other great fighters, due to politics in the sport, will never get that key fight with another great fighter that they need to catapult their career. Some fighters just get avoided period, or have great skills, but a style that is not considered exciting. Too much risk for a high profile guy.

I rate fighters on a bad ass level. I will always look favorably on a fighter who is willing to get in the ring with anyone and loves the game.

What is your opinion?

Care to give an example of fighters getting overlooked?

Chris John
Nonito Donaire
Joan Guzman
Robert Guerrero

Are just a few examples.

Plus many fighters, who we are forced to overlook, due to politics in the game and them never getting a fair crack at the P4P list or even a mainstream fight.

[Kev]

I have stated it here before. I will never look at a pound for pound list as I find it's methodology totally unfair. It is built mainly on popularity and politics IMO and many fighters, who are great fighters, will always get overlooked.

Some careers are so carefully guided and timed, that they can get placed on the list just by beating someone currently on the list, no matter how faded the person on the list is. Others on the list, will steadily climb that list as long as they keep winning (even against lesser competition) and others above them retire or get beaten.

Other great fighters, due to politics in the sport, will never get that key fight with another great fighter that they need to catapult their career. Some fighters just get avoided period, or have great skills, but a style that is not considered exciting. Too much risk for a high profile guy.

I rate fighters on a bad ass level. I will always look favorably on a fighter who is willing to get in the ring with anyone and loves the game.

What is your opinion?

Care to give an example of fighters getting overlooked?

Chris John
Nonito Donaire
Joan Guzman
Robert Guerrero

Are just a few examples.

Plus many fighters, who we are forced to overlook, due to politics in the game and them never getting a fair crack at the P4P list or even a mainstream fight.

You'd be hard presses to make a case for any of them being Top 10 p4p.

John has the controversial win over Marquez but otherwise his record is full of nobodies. Donaire has beaten Darchinan but nobody else of real merit yet, and Darchinyan was nowhere near p4p.

Guzman is a great fighter and probably top 20 but he's currently only the third best fighter in his division so cannot be regarded as a top 10 p4p.

Guerro? Is this a joke? He's not even top 20 lol

I'd personally say David Haye has a better resume for p4p than all of those above seeing as he knocked out the undisputed cruiserweight champ in his own back yard and then knocked out the Ring number 1 contender in 2 rounds immediately following.

[Kev]

Chris John
Nonito Donaire
Joan Guzman
Robert Guerrero

Are just a few examples.

Plus many fighters, who we are forced to overlook, due to politics in the game and them never getting a fair crack at the P4P list or even a mainstream fight.

You'd be hard presses to make a case for any of them being Top 10 p4p.

John has the controversial win over Marquez but otherwise his record is full of nobodies. Donaire has beaten Darchinan but nobody else of real merit yet, and Darchinyan was nowhere near p4p.

Guzman is a great fighter and probably top 20 but he's currently only the third best fighter in his division so cannot be regarded as a top 10 p4p.

Guerro? Is this a joke? He's not even top 20 lol

I'd personally say David Haye has a better resume for p4p than all of those above seeing as he knocked out the undisputed cruiserweight champ in his own back yard and then knocked out the Ring number 1 contender in 2 rounds immediately following.

Donaire has KOd Luis Maldonado, one of the very best at his weight also.

He was decent earning a disputed draw with Mijares but he'd never even won a world title belt so not really one of the top guys.

He's the equivalent of a Kendall Holt or Rocky Juaruez.

A decent win but not p4p making.

[DaxxKahn]

I have stated it here before. I will never look at a pound for pound list as I find it's methodology totally unfair. It is built mainly on popularity and politics IMO and many fighters, who are great fighters, will always get overlooked.

Some careers are so carefully guided and timed, that they can get placed on the list just by beating someone currently on the list, no matter how faded the person on the list is. Others on the list, will steadily climb that list as long as they keep winning (even against lesser competition) and others above them retire or get beaten.

Other great fighters, due to politics in the sport, will never get that key fight with another great fighter that they need to catapult their career. Some fighters just get avoided period, or have great skills, but a style that is not considered exciting. Too much risk for a high profile guy.

I rate fighters on a bad ass level. I will always look favorably on a fighter who is willing to get in the ring with anyone and loves the game.

What is your opinion?

Care to give an example of fighters getting overlooked?

Chris John
Nonito Donaire
Joan Guzman
Robert Guerrero

Are just a few examples.

Plus many fighters, who we are forced to overlook, due to politics in the game and them never getting a fair crack at the P4P list or even a mainstream fight.

I can agree to some guys being overlooked by populartity or actually lack of world wide mainstream exposure....There was a thread not long ago about everyones top 10 P4P..after the Vazquez/Marquez 3 fight...I had Chris John on my list and was blasted for it...but IMO he is a guy who is often overlooked due to the lack of TV exposure...

As for Doniare, Guerrero and Guzman...they do not quite fit the bill yet sorry to say....Nonito would be the first of the three IMO to make the list...it is a toss up between who is better Robert or Joan TBH I don't see either as P4P fighters any time soon.....

The rankings are based on quality of wins (Can hardly say it with a straight face)...But that is how it is supposed to be anyhow.....Right now the rankings are pretty much on Target...

In no particular order (I am just nam,ing them off the top of my head)..the usual P4P at the moment goes..

PBF, Hopkins, Calzaghe, Vazquez, Pacquiao, Rafael and JMM Marquez, Pavlik, Wright, with one spot changing up about once a month...

IMO boxrec has the worst P4P list out there....They have Haye ranked higher then Calzaghe...I can understand the frustration though

[winscomeez]

How can there be a list anyway,if you ain't P4P you ain't P4P!!!!!

[p4pking]

How can there be a list anyway,if you ain't P4P you ain't P4P!!!!!

What he said...

[Fenster]

It's amazing how serioulsy fans take the P4P rankings. It's all utter bollocks.

Joan Guzman would beat half the current ranked P4P top 10 (legit, respected, ) with his eyes closed.. but no-one rates him in the top 10 because even though he possesses a clear sick talent he doesn't have the "names" on his resume.. the very same "names" that wont fight him because he's avoidable..

[CFH]

It's amazing how serioulsy fans take the P4P rankings. It's all utter bollocks.

Joan Guzman would beat half the current ranked P4P top 10 (legit, respected, ) with his eyes closed.. but no-one rates him in the top 10 because even though he possesses a clear sick talent he doesn't have the "names" on his resume.. the very same "names" that wont fight him because he's avoidable..

Just playing devil's advocate here.
If he hasn't been matched up against top-tier opposition how can you be sure his skills are as sick as you claim? You can have all the potential/skills in the world, but until to prove you can beat or compete with the best you do not belong among them IMO. Plenty of guys look great until they meet a Pacquiao or a Hopkins.

[Fenster]

It's amazing how serioulsy fans take the P4P rankings. It's all utter bollocks.

Joan Guzman would beat half the current ranked P4P top 10 (legit, respected, ) with his eyes closed.. but no-one rates him in the top 10 because even though he possesses a clear sick talent he doesn't have the "names" on his resume.. the very same "names" that wont fight him because he's avoidable..

Just playing devil's advocate here.
If he hasn't been matched up against top-tier opposition how can you be sure his skills are as sick as you claim? You can have all the potential/skills in the world, but until to prove you can beat or compete with the best you do not belong among them IMO. Plenty of guys look great until they meet a Pacquiao or a Hopkins.

P4P is about mythical match-ups with size and weight leveled. Guzman fighting Pac doesn't need the mythical bullshit, they're the same weight.. they fight - we get the better man.

But the likes of Pac can avoid Guzman because he doesn't need him. Too big a risk for too little reward.. and even were they to fight and Pac wins would that mean as a hardcore follower of boxing, in a P4P scenario would you bet against Guzman over the likes of Hatton, Marquez, Cotto, Pavlik, Vasquez etc...?

[Kev]

It's amazing how serioulsy fans take the P4P rankings. It's all utter bollocks.

Joan Guzman would beat half the current ranked P4P top 10 (legit, respected, ) with his eyes closed.. but no-one rates him in the top 10 because even though he possesses a clear sick talent he doesn't have the "names" on his resume.. the very same "names" that wont fight him because he's avoidable..

Just playing devil's advocate here.
If he hasn't been matched up against top-tier opposition how can you be sure his skills are as sick as you claim? You can have all the potential/skills in the world, but until to prove you can beat or compete with the best you do not belong among them IMO. Plenty of guys look great until they meet a Pacquiao or a Hopkins.

P4P is about mythical match-ups with size and weight leveled. Guzman fighting Pac doesn't need the mythical bullshit, they're the same weight.. they fight - we get the better man.

But the likes of Pac can avoid Guzman because he doesn''t need him. Too big a risk for too little reward.. and even were they to fight and Pac wins would that mean as a hardcore follower of boxing, in a P4P scenario would you bet against Guzman over the likes of Hatton, Marquez, Cotto, Pavlik, Vasquez etc...?

I don't see p4p as being about mythical matchups at all. I rate fighters based purely on what they have already achieved. What they might go on to do doesn't come into it at all.

I don't even think when done properly that subjective experience comes into it that much. I wouldn't say it does for me.

I think the majority of boxing experts and well educated fans on here rate fighters strictly according to their actual acomplishments so far and not whether they think afighter is potentially better or not.

I actually agree with you regarding Guzman. I'd pick him right now over Marquez and Paquaio. I also believe R Marquez and maybe Isreal as well are no longer the fighers they were when they began their trilogy and that they could end up losing to the likes of Cabellero, Molitor and Ponce De Leon as their wars have taken too much out of them both.

Does this mean I'd even consider rating any og these fighters above them? Hell no, they havn't acomplished anything like these guys have.

In reality the P4P rankings are always a bit out of date as they reflect past acomplishments.

I absolutely belive Hopkins, Pacquiao, JMM Marquez are all top 5 p4p stars but I absolutely believe that there are younger fighters coming up who could beat them. Guzman would beat both Manny and Juan Marquez imo and I really think Hopkins wouldn't be able to beat a young lion like Chad Dawson or a a relentless young puncher like Kelly Pavlik. He's too old, although he'd give them a hell of a tough fight.

[El Kabong]

I just hate it when stupid bastards try and put heavyweights in the pound for pound rankings.


NEWFLASH! THE P4P SYSTEM WAS CREATED TO LIST THE BEST FIGHTERS OUTSIDE THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION!!!!


The only time any heavyweight should be listed in the P4P is if that heavyweight came up from a lighter weight ie: Gene Tunney, Roy Jones Jr., but not Evander Holyfield as he fought the majority of his career at heavyweight.


People who list ALI as a P4Per are fucking annoying and have lost their God damn minds as Ali was the biggest motherfucker fighting in the division at the time!!!!

[brucelee]

It's amazing how serioulsy fans take the P4P rankings. It's all utter bollocks.

Joan Guzman would beat half the current ranked P4P top 10 (legit, respected, ) with his eyes closed.. but no-one rates him in the top 10 because even though he possesses a clear sick talent he doesn't have the "names" on his resume.. the very same "names" that wont fight him because he's avoidable..

Just playing devil's advocate here.
If he hasn't been matched up against top-tier opposition how can you be sure his skills are as sick as you claim? You can have all the potential/skills in the world, but until to prove you can beat or compete with the best you do not belong among them IMO. Plenty of guys look great until they meet a Pacquiao or a Hopkins.

Very true. Like MAB being considered as the king of the featherweight after defeating Naz. Then suddenly, a Pacman from nowhere battered him badly...

Anyway, I can not discount the fact that Guzman is quite skillful. Someday, his time to reign will come. As for now, against Pacquaio, we still do not know how he will fare. A win against Soto is not a guarantee that he will also be able to win over Pacquaio. Besides, Pacquaio has deadlier punches than Soto.

All are just speculations.As to the P4P ranking, let's respect that. Those fighters in that list are not there without any reason. One way or the other, they have fought their way to be there.

Lastly, as to the recognition and respect the fighters are getting or not getting, like in Saddo, it is being earned through time and quality fights.

[El Kabong]

Bilbo no one is doubting Ali's greatness (although some vastly overrate him but that's neither here nor there) but he only fought in one fucking division AND he was the biggest fighter in that division and therefore his status at P4P would be limited if he even deserved to be there to begin with.

The P4P is a grouping of non heavyweights to see who is the best non heavyweight either now or all-time and that's why it was created, to give Robinson and Pep and Duran and Leonard etc some credit because the heavyweights already have their place as the premier division and therefore need no special recognition

[Kev]

Care to give an example of fighters getting overlooked?

Chris John
Nonito Donaire
Joan Guzman
Robert Guerrero

Are just a few examples.

Plus many fighters, who we are forced to overlook, due to politics in the game and them never getting a fair crack at the P4P list or even a mainstream fight.

I can agree to some guys being overlooked by populartity or actually lack of world wide mainstream exposure....There was a thread not long ago about everyones top 10 P4P..after the Vazquez/Marquez 3 fight...I had Chris John on my list and was blasted for it...but IMO he is a guy who is often overlooked due to the lack of TV exposure...

As for Doniare, Guerrero and Guzman...they do not quite fit the bill yet sorry to say....Nonito would be the first of the three IMO to make the list...it is a toss up between who is better Robert or Joan TBH I don't see either as P4P fighters any time soon.....

The rankings are based on quality of wins (Can hardly say it with a straight face)...But that is how it is supposed to be anyhow.....Right now the rankings are pretty much on Target...

In no particular order (I am just nam,ing them off the top of my head)..the usual P4P at the moment goes..

PBF, Hopkins, Calzaghe, Vazquez, Pacquiao, Rafael and JMM Marquez, Pavlik, Wright, with one spot changing up about once a month...

IMO boxrec has the worst P4P list out there....They have Haye ranked higher then Calzaghe...I can understand the frustration though

I tell you what though, if Haye was a little guy, say from the bantamweight division and had just had back to back KO wins over the Ring and universally recognised champ and then over the number 1 ranked Contender and fellow world champ in 2 rounds people would be talking about him more I think.

You see guys like Mijares, John, Guerreo etc creeping up into or near peoples p4p lists and they havn't done what Haye has done in my opinion.

If Mijares had followed up his beatdown of Arce with a 2 round demolition of Fernado Montiel you'd hear a LOT of talk on here for him being p4p.

Same with John if he knocked out Guerrero.

Not saying Haye is top 10 p4p but his achievements do deserve credit, I'd probably have him in my top 20 p4p now, and above Mijares, Guerro and John imo.