Koko the Gorilla, especially of interest to Sharla and Pacfan

[X]

Of course animals are intelligent, how could they not be?

Natural selection rewards survival and reproduction - animals are not brainless automata. Studies show primates with a wide ability to grasp English, parrots with thousands of words of spoken vocabulary, and octopus that react to puzzles and intelligence tests.

Now, bearing in mind that they are therefore communicating to us in OUR language better than any human has managed to communicate in theirs!

People that think anything else (animal or human) is subhuman and has no dignity, soul or rights are a great part of the reason the world is in the mess that it is !!

[Kev]

Of course animals are intelligent, how could they not be?

Natural selection rewards survival and reproduction - animals are not brainless automata. Studies show primates with a wide ability to grasp English, parrots with thousands of words of spoken vocabulary, and octopus that react to puzzles and intelligence tests.

Now, bearing in mind that they are therefore communicating to us in OUR language better than any human has managed to communicate in theirs!

People that think anything else (animal or human) is subhuman and has no dignity, soul or rights are a great part of the reason the world is in the mess that it is !!

Well I certainly think all animals are subhuman and I'm guessing so does everybody else in actuality!

If you've ever eaten meat or worn leather clothing or use anything that comes from animal products then by definition you'd have to accept that animals are subhuman. I believe a human life is worth more than an animal life and so does the world at large else we wouldn't kill animals to eat them or use them whatever way we do if we truly valued their lives as much as our own.

This may sound silly but if animals were truly seen as being equal to humans we'd have dogs on hospital waiting lists and sheep ahead of us in the queue at the dentist! Sounds nuts but that IS what happens in places where animals are truly seen as equal to humans, picture those remote temples overun with rats as they are believed to be sacred or obscure tribes who share their houses with cattle as the cattle are seen as equal to them!

Now that doesn't mean we should be cruel to animals, absolutely not but I don't think an animal life equates to a human life. Human life is I believe sacred.

As to the question of animal intelligence I've been thinking of this a lot recently.

My own world view I guess is biblical and in that model man is given dominion over all the animals, which I feel is an accurate reflection of how this world works.

It is true that animals can build unique relationships with humans, but interestingly they do not build them with each other. Don't get me wrong many creatures live interdependent lives and coexist to amazing degrees but at a higher level they don't form relationships with each other like a higher level animal can form with a human.

Gorillas in the wild don't bond with zebras, your family dog will rarely bond with your family cat or even another dog. They don't crave physical touch from each other like they do with a human.

I feel that animals are kind of like AI characters in an advanced computer game generally behaving like automata until they interact with real human characters.

A parrot can learn to imitate human language for example but I've never heard of parrots in the wild copying monkeys or roaring like lions.

Gorillas can learn sign language from humans and elephants can learn to paint but I've never seen a gorilla sit down and chat to an elephant in the wild. It doesn't happen.

Why not?

I believe because man kind truly has dominion over the animals and that animals are designed to be sunserviant to humans. Again I'm absolutely against animal cruelty, but I believe that God gave man stewardship over the earth and the animal kingdom, to take care of it wisely and with respect.

[Sharla]

Pfft! The cat and the dog at my mum's house are best mates. They play together all the time.

The same can be said for the cat and dog at my bro's place. The kitten was wild and actually adopted them because it followed the dog home from a walk in the park over a km. Not my brother but the dog.

When the dog escapes from the yard the cat and the dog go adventuring together!

In the vid you posted Koko loves her kittens!

I heard about a story just recently where a dolphin helped guide 3 whales at risk of being beached out to deeper waters!

There are many examples of animals bonding with each other you just don't hear about them if you're not enough of an animal lover to be interested!

As for humans being given stewardship over the earth I also think that's crap. Humans don't have the knowledge or ability - and in the past this knowledge was even less than it is now - to make suitable decisions for the world as a whole.

We as all animals have the instinct of self preservation on an individaul and species level.

There are hospitals for animals - they are called veterinary clinics! We're just more worried about ourselves so we are willing to pay more money to train doctors to specialize in our own treatment.

Animals are not human but you don't have to think of them as being subhuman to admit that there is a food chain.

We're not at the top - there is no top really. We have parasites. We just eat what we do as do all other animals.

If you really want to get into it there are people living in the third world who don't have any better existance than some animals.

In the wild the instict for self preservation is stronger because the race for life is a harder one. That doesn't for a second mean that they are inferior.

[Kev]

Pfft! The cat and the dog at my mum's house are best mates. They play together all the time.

The same can be said for the cat and dog at my bro's place. The kitten was wild and actually adopted them because it followed the dog home from a walk in the park over a km. Not my brother but the dog.

When the dog escapes from the yard the cat and the dog go adventuring together!

In the vid you posted Koko loves her kittens!

I heard about a story just recently where a dolphin helped guide 3 whales at risk of being beached out to deeper waters!

There are many examples of animals bonding with each other you just don't hear about them if you're not enough of an animal lover to be interested!

As for humans being given stewardship over the earth I also think that's crap. Humans don't have the knowledge or ability - and in the past this knowledge was even less than it is now - to make suitable decisions for the world as a whole.

We as all animals have the instinct of self preservation on an individaul and species level.

There are hospitals for animals - they are called veterinary clinics! We're just more worried about ourselves so we are willing to pay more money to train doctors to specialize in our own treatment.

Animals are not human but you don't have to think of them as being subhuman to admit that there is a food chain.

We're not at the top - there is no top really. We have parasites. We just eat what we do as do all other animals.

If you really want to get into it there are people living in the third world who don't have any better existance than some animals.

In the wild the instict for self preservation is stronger because the race for life is a harder one. That doesn't for a second mean that they are inferior.

Bilbo has left the building

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http://www.masainternational.com/ass...6001250300.jpg

[CGM]

Pfft! The cat and the dog at my mum's house are best mates. They play together all the time.

The same can be said for the cat and dog at my bro's place. The kitten was wild and actually adopted them because it followed the dog home from a walk in the park over a km. Not my brother but the dog.

When the dog escapes from the yard the cat and the dog go adventuring together!

In the vid you posted Koko loves her kittens!

I heard about a story just recently where a dolphin helped guide 3 whales at risk of being beached out to deeper waters!

There are many examples of animals bonding with each other you just don't hear about them if you're not enough of an animal lover to be interested!

As for humans being given stewardship over the earth I also think that's crap. Humans don't have the knowledge or ability - and in the past this knowledge was even less than it is now - to make suitable decisions for the world as a whole.

We as all animals have the instinct of self preservation on an individaul and species level.

There are hospitals for animals - they are called veterinary clinics! We're just more worried about ourselves so we are willing to pay more money to train doctors to specialize in our own treatment.

Animals are not human but you don't have to think of them as being subhuman to admit that there is a food chain.

We're not at the top - there is no top really. We have parasites. We just eat what we do as do all other animals.

If you really want to get into it there are people living in the third world who don't have any better existance than some animals.

In the wild the instict for self preservation is stronger because the race for life is a harder one. That doesn't for a second mean that they are inferior.

There are a number of documented cases of dolphins helping humans. Which is quite something considering that there is no bonding, like that between human and dog. I read somewhere that the dolphin is one of the evolutionary stages of man, for whatever that is worth. It makes my wonder how a dolphin views man, as just another animal or as something more, which by the way man is.

Here is a case where dolphins rescued a surfer after he was attacked by a great white.

Dolphins rescue surfer from shark - People: Tales of survival - Today.msnbc.com

[X]

I'm with Sharla on this one ..... the idea that 'god' somehow gave humans dominance over the animals is a really stupid idea. It's quite convenient to say, but there is no evidence whatsoever.

Biblical mumbo jumbo.