I conceed.

[El Kabong]

...The American Dream isn't a lie...people have come here with no house to live in and no food to eat and they have made something out of themselves.

The American Dream fails when people start pointing their fingers and blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings. If you can build yourself up then you can also bring yourself down...sure other people have some say in certain areas but are you going to let THEM run your life? I know I won't because I RUN MY LIFE...I'm responsible and accountable for myself and I am the reason I fail or succeed I don't blame anyone else.


You think capitalism = greed and it's totally wrong. Capitalism is an achievement based system of economics and some people know how to play the game a lot better than others.

Greed is a SELFISH drive for money, power, and possesions....you ask people why they work and usually it's "to provide for my family" that's not greed. There is nothing greedy about striving to reach goals through hard work either.


What do you want? Do you want me to go out and bust my ass working while some lazy dirtbag sits at home collecting a government check You want people to work hard or do you want them to do the bare minimum I WANT to work hard as do a lot of people and if you think that little of yourself or whoever you percieve is hurt by capitalism then fine just tell them to give up and wait for that welfare check because that's really hard work and it's sooo worth it too.

Everyone isn't equal in the eyes of Capitalism...you EARN your keep and that is what makes it rewarding. Capitalism is based on the basic psychological programing we all have positive reinforcement...you work you earn money, you do a good job you earn more money. In Communism and Socialism it's you work, you get money, you don't work you get money, you work hard you get money, you work lazy you get money, you do crappy work you get money....where you see FAIR I see UNFAIR because it tells people that their worst is good enough and that's no way to live a life

[OumaFan]

Allen Greenspan, fairly conservative fiscally, said Clinton was the most impressive President he worked with on economic matters (even his detractors would have to admit Clinton did well economically) so Presidents do matter as far as the economy goes, not just advisors, although obviously its important to pick competent advisors, look at the idiots surrounding Bush who helped us get into all this trouble. .

[Trainer Monkey]

...The American Dream isn't a lie...people have come here with no house to live in and no food to eat and they have made something out of themselves.

The American Dream fails when people start pointing their fingers and blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings. If you can build yourself up then you can also bring yourself down...sure other people have some say in certain areas but are you going to let THEM run your life? I know I won't because I RUN MY LIFE...I'm responsible and accountable for myself and I am the reason I fail or succeed I don't blame anyone else.


You think capitalism = greed and it's totally wrong. Capitalism is an achievement based system of economics and some people know how to play the game a lot better than others.

Greed is a SELFISH drive for money, power, and possesions....you ask people why they work and usually it's "to provide for my family" that's not greed. There is nothing greedy about striving to reach goals through hard work either.


What do you want? Do you want me to go out and bust my ass working while some lazy dirtbag sits at home collecting a government check You want people to work hard or do you want them to do the bare minimum I WANT to work hard as do a lot of people and if you think that little of yourself or whoever you percieve is hurt by capitalism then fine just tell them to give up and wait for that welfare check because that's really hard work and it's sooo worth it too.

Everyone isn't equal in the eyes of Capitalism...you EARN your keep and that is what makes it rewarding. Capitalism is based on the basic psychological programing we all have positive reinforcement...you work you earn money, you do a good job you earn more money. In Communism and Socialism it's you work, you get money, you don't work you get money, you work hard you get money, you work lazy you get money, you do crappy work you get money....where you see FAIR I see UNFAIR because it tells people that their worst is good enough and that's no way to live a life

"You earn your keep"
Well I guess that means we'll be frog marching the heads of Aetna,Massey Energy,and Enron and dropping a slug in their head right?
I mean on a good day they sign a few papers,not exactly earning their keep are they?
They usually tank their own companies
Definitly not earning their keep are they?
Who do you think was working harder to earn their keep Lyle,the three miners who died in a Massey Mine last year?
Or the guy living in a tawney Washington suburb that made the decision not to set up the oxygen stations that would have saved their lives?

[El Kabong]

"You earn your keep"
Well I guess that means we'll be frog marching the heads of Aetna,Massey Energy,and Enron and dropping a slug in their head right?
I mean on a good day they sign a few papers,not exactly earning their keep are they?
They usually tank their own companies
Definitly not earning their keep are they?
Who do you think was working harder to earn their keep Lyle,the three miners who died in a Massey Mine last year?
Or the guy living in a tawney Washington suburb that made the decision not to set up the oxygen stations that would have saved their lives?

The guys who CHOSE to be miners of course...they did choose that line of work didn't they Sure they probably didn't go to the finest grade schools or college if they even went to college but they weren't forced to work in a mine, no one held a gun to anybody's head...they know what could happen to them every single day they go down there. So someone cut corners with oxygen tanks...Miners have leverage because they do the leg work and they have the unions to get oxygen tanks put in.

bcollins failure is necessary ...without failure you never learn, without failure you gain nothing from success, without failure there is no such thing as hard work.

The American Dream isn't just for poor people buddy

The deck is stacked against the common man haha....and I suppose in communism and socialism then everyone does great. With that attitude you might as well just quit life, you're defeated, you've lost...game is over.

The American Dream isn't achieved over night...I will work for years and years accomplishing small goals and then accomplishing larger goals.

I'm not putting my fate in anyone else's hands...I control my own destiny...I could give a damn about some white collar guy doing whatever he's paid to do....maybe someday I'll be in that position. Those guys work hard, I've seen them, it's just a different type of work. Not everyone is some airhead who plays on the computer all day wasting money...those guys get what's coming to them in the end as well.

[Trainer Monkey]

Try posting me again without a miner,you generally need power for that
Aint gonna have alot of that without miners

[El Kabong]

Well I understand and respect your opinion however no one made those people mine. Those guys knew what the dangers were and they went anyway, they went inspite of maybe not being paid a sufficient ammount as well.

They had a choice in life and they chose mining. Mines are a necesity but it doesn't change the fact that those guys chose that as a career, no one forced them to do that for a living.

Nuclear is the way to go...and FYI we have a nuclear power plant just outside Raleigh so, sure thing bro I'll post after they shut down those plants.


And if they are THAT important why can't they get more pay and get better safety measures

[Trainer Monkey]

Well I understand and respect your opinion however no one made those people mine. Those guys knew what the dangers were and they went anyway, they went inspite of maybe not being paid a sufficient ammount as well.

They had a choice in life and they chose mining. Mines are a necesity but it doesn't change the fact that those guys chose that as a career, no one forced them to do that for a living.

Nuclear is the way to go...and FYI we have a nuclear power plant just outside Raleigh so, sure thing bro I'll post after they shut down those plants.


And if they are THAT important why can't they get more pay and get better safety measures

They should,it just doesnt happen
And by the way Uranium,which runs your Nuke plant is mined,as is most of the salt you put on your food

[El Kabong]

So we should all become communist miners Is that Obama's plan for changing America


Well in knowing all this why don't you organize a strike or something to create safer mines and mining practices?

[Trainer Monkey]

So we should all become communist miners Is that Obama's plan for changing America


Well in knowing all this why don't you organize a strike or something to create safer mines and mining practices?

We're allready taking steps here
But change doesnt happen overnight,Im betting Massey has better lobbyists then the Union
I mean if you can even find a union mine anymore

[bcollins]

...The American Dream isn't a lie...people have come here with no house to live in and no food to eat and they have made something out of themselves.

I wonder how many people fail for every one that succeeds? My guess is that it's a very lopsided ratio.

The American Dream fails when people start pointing their fingers and blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings. If you can build yourself up then you can also bring yourself down...sure other people have some say in certain areas but are you going to let THEM run your life? I know I won't because I RUN MY LIFE...I'm responsible and accountable for myself and I am the reason I fail or succeed I don't blame anyone else.

So, are you one of the ones who came from nothing and bult yourself up? I agree everyone is responsible for his or her own actions, but what I'm saying is that sometimes it isn't enough to bust your ass. I've seen a lot of people work themselves to the bone and end up with a big bunch of nothing through no fault of their own. Sometimes there ARE outside influences that determine success or failure. You seem to live in this dream world where hard work=success - and that's not the reality of the situation.

You think capitalism = greed and it's totally wrong. Capitalism is an achievement based system of economics and some people know how to play the game a lot better than others.

Sure - and the game is driven by those who started with a flush hand, for the most part. I know there are a lot of examples of people who work within the system to advance to the next rung of financial success, but for the most part, the deck is stacked against the common man.

...
Greed is a SELFISH drive for money, power, and possesions....you ask people why they work and usually it's "to provide for my family" that's not greed. There is nothing greedy about striving to reach goals through hard work either.

What do you want? Do you want me to go out and bust my ass working while some lazy dirtbag sits at home collecting a government check You want people to work hard or do you want them to do the bare minimum I WANT to work hard as do a lot of people and if you think that little of yourself or whoever you percieve is hurt by capitalism then fine just tell them to give up and wait for that welfare check because that's really hard work and it's sooo worth it too.

If the system works as you say it does, and you work as hard as you say you do, then you have several million in the bank that you worked really hard for, right? It's just that easy to go out and make all that money, right?

And I never said I want anyone to sit back and earn a welfare check. I think in most cases that welfare is crap. I think you should have to work for any money you get from the nation. Please stop projecting your anti-democrat rhetoric onto my position.

And I work my ass off too, buddy. I just finished a Master's degree while working three jobs pretty much the whole time I've been in school. I grew up working on farms and doing construction, so I'll wager I know a little something about hard work.

Everyone isn't equal in the eyes of Capitalism...you EARN your keep and that is what makes it rewarding. Capitalism is based on the basic psychological programing we all have positive reinforcement...you work you earn money, you do a good job you earn more money. In Communism and Socialism it's you work, you get money, you don't work you get money, you work hard you get money, you work lazy you get money, you do crappy work you get money....where you see FAIR I see UNFAIR because it tells people that their worst is good enough and that's no way to live a life

If capitalism worked that way, I'd have less of a problem with it. But that's a THEORETICAL interpretation. The reality is, you work, you work hard, you do better work, and you may or may not get the money you deserve. In most cases, some white-collar asshole that barely moves three feet in the course of the day gets a big chunk of whatever you make - without working a damn bit for it. So quit spouting off all this hypothetical, fairy-tale bullshit and get with the program.