Was Muhammad Ali really the best

[jmbtandy]

Now the thing is he was "The Greatest"

Not neccesarily the best.. In my opinion you have to consider not just the way he fought and who he fought, but his character.. the time in which he was about.. and the circumstances surrounding him during the years in which he was in the publics eye..

He was entertaining, A poet, a comedian.. A heavyweight with fast hands, dancing feet, decent power.. A big mouth.. Plenty of great opposition to make him the legit name he became.. The circumstances of him refusing to go to war, became a muslim.. All of it together is just the story of a legend really..

And you kinda wish you knew as much about joe louis and sugar ray robinson so that they had as much publicism as ali and were as renound for theyr amazing skills..

But although greats themselves they couldnt have been as bold and demanded attention quite like ali..

But yeah i think he probably is the greatest.. In a literal sense.. But not specifically the bestt.

Like it agree totally

[Beanflicker]

I'm not a huge fan of Ali, I think he was overrated as a PERSON and his exploits outside the ring are greatly exaggerated/romanticized because he is so beloved.

That being said giving the #1 spot of all time to anyone else is, IMO, rediculous. He was the best in the best period of HW boxing. Look at his record, its a who's who of the mid 60s to late 70s. NOBODY in the history of HW boxing has the quality of wins Ali has. Of course there were guys in history who would give Ali fits and possibly beat him, but if you look at everything - skill, accomplishments, heart, physical attributes - there was no one better.

Marciano was an ATG no question and one hell of a fighter, but there is no comparing his 49-0 record to Ali's 56-5. If Marciano fought the quality of opposition that Ali did, I gaurentee you he would not have that pretty undefeated record.

[El Kabong]

And how about Joe Louis' 69 (55 KO)-3

[CutMeMick]

My lists tend to change as time goes by but for the most part it's the same names...

Ali
Jack
Joe
Rocky
Lennox
Evander
Foreman
Holmes
Floyd
Tyson

[El Kabong]

So no Walcott and no Charles Dude seriously give those guys their props....Floyd Patterson....how many times did he defend the title successfully

[DaxxKahn]

So no Walcott and no Charles Dude seriously give those guys their props....Floyd Patterson....how many times did he defend the title successfully

Here...Patterson, Walcott, Charles, johnson, Dempsey....

Really did not want to go through the encyclopedia mate thought everyone pretty much got the idea

[rene69]

...and Ali could have flown a rocketship to the moon too...doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.


And no Ali wouldn't have had an easy time with either of those fighters even in HYPOTHETICAL fights. Joe Louis 25 title defenses, Rocky Marciano 49-0-0....what concrete evidence do you present on Ali's behalf

I'm talking in mythical matchups 1st

1st of all...Louis & Marciano never dealt with someone like Ali ever in their careers. And forget Ezzard Charles because he wasn't even in the same league as Ali. Both Louis & MArciano were flat footed stationary fighters with the style that Ali would dance circles around and hit at will before they had time to set their flat footed feet. Louis would not outbox Ali and Marciano would not come close to ko'ing the iron jawed ali. Most people think of Ali is this safety style 1st fighter, especially the younger generation. But Ali was a warrior who liked to fight and had the heart, will and chin along with god given natural athleticism that way surpassed Those two other guys.

If you want to go by ring records and defenses then you have a gripe...i guess.
But the fact of the matter is... They didn't call most of Louis's defences "bums of the month " for nothing. And most of Marciano's opponents were "bums", and the fact that he fought them sometimes more than once to pad his record.

Ali fought the best of the best and beat them all. MAny of Ali's opponents are now Hall Of famers themselves.

[El Kabong]

....you don't want to debate me on this...I'm giving you a chance to let it go so I don't unload on you and rip your arguement to shreds

[rene69]

....you don't want to debate me on this...I'm giving you a chance to let it go so I don't unload on you and rip your arguement to shreds

LOL!! ok.

[DaxxKahn]

Ali reigned in the greatest HW era of all time, When he started in the early 1960's the level of competition was about the same as it was during the reign of Marciano with the exception of Charles and Joe Walcott,

Ali beat Liston...A man still considered one of the mos feared fighters of all time....(Lets avoid the whole fix in the second and mob ties bullshit that usually follows shall we)...He beat Frazier....(Lets not start saying well Joe was smaller then todays guys and would have lost in the 90's)....He beat a vicious George Foreman.....

Ali beat every contender and then some there was to fight...Something I don't think anyone else can say with the exception of Louis...and Lewis...

The contenders back then were more skilled then most champions are today....

Ali reinvented himself no less then 3 times...

He went from lighting quick kid who had the reflexes of a lightweight in the early parts.....

He became a fighter that used the mental game to get into fighters heads...Used flash and was the master of dirty fighting...yes ALI was dirty (and I am a fan)...On his best day Bernard Hopkins who prides himself on such things is not a tenth as ring savvy as Ali was...Ali hit and held, hit behind the head, hit after the bell....but it worked for him

He became a fighter that used his tremendous chin to actually let guys punch themselves out.....

Two of his 5 losses were waayyy past his best..Berbick and Spinks)...Rumor still circulates to the fact he lost the Spinks bout on purpose so he could regain the title one last time and be the first man to hold the title 3 times...knowing he was winding down and it was possibly his Last chance to really accomplish anything....Even his loss to Homes was past his best....

(Though that is in no way a dig at Holmes Larry was a great champion in his own right)....

There is no shame in losing a bout to Ken Norton...Ken was a hard guy to fight and he had an odd style that was hard to adjust to...His other loss during his prime years was to Frazier a widely recognized top 10 all time HW....A loss that had to do with as much to atrition as Fraziers skill

He was never beaten in his prime handily....Also Ali lost 3 of his best years so in is return to the ring after exile was an Ali who had lost some of his youth...and just because a fighter gets knocked down does not take away from his skill......Sorry to break the news to some of the guys out there who seem to use that against many fighters throughout these boards....

Ali may have or may have not been the best HW of all time thus far...He is No less then second...He certainly fought better men in their prime then Louis or Marciano....Louis was KO'd flat in his prime years and Marciano had a great chin, stamina and will power but could not box for shit!...Fact not opinion...

It was Ali being able to reinvent himself so often, the fact Ali turned this sport into the mass publics eye, the fact Ali invented the mind game, the mega fights, the way he brought it all together at once when need be that made him the Greatest....There was more to it then skill alone.....

Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing

[rene69]

Ali reigned in the greatest HW era of all time, When he started in the early 1960's the level of competition was about the same as it was during the reign of Marciano with the exception of Charles and Joe Walcott,

Ali beat Liston...A man still considered one of the mos feared fighters of all time....(Lets avoid the whole fix in the second and mob tie bullshit that follows shall we)...He beat Frazier....(Lets not start saying well Joe was smaller then todays guys and would have lost in the 90's)....He beat a vicious George Foreman.....

Al beat every contender and then some there was to fight...Something I don't think anyone else can say with the exception of Louis...and Lewis...

The contenders back then were more skilled then most champions are today....

Ali reinvented himself no less then 3 times...

He went from lighting quick kid who had the reflexes of a lightweight in the early parts.....

He became a fighter that used the mental game to get into fighters heads...Used flash and was the master of dirty fighting...yes ALI was dirty (and I am a fan)...On his best day Bernard Hopkins who prides himself on such things is not a tenth as ring savvy as Ali was...Ali hit and held, hit behind the head, hit after the bell....but it worked for him

He became a fighter that used his tremendous chin to actually let guys punch themselves out.....

Two of his 5 losses were waayyy past his best..Berbick and Spinks)...Rumor still circulates to the fact he lost the Spinks bout on purpose so he could regain the title one last time and be the first man to hold the title 3 times...knowing he was winding down and it was possibly his Last chance to really accomplish anything....Even his loss to Homes was past his best....

(Though that is in no way a dig at Holmes Larry was a great champion in his own right)....

There is no shame in losing a bout to Ken Norton...Ken was a hard guy to fight and he had an odd style that was hard to adjust to...His other loss was to Frazier....

He was never beaten in his prime...and just because a fighter gets knocked down does not take away from his skill......Sorry to break the news to some of the guys out there who seem to use that against many fighters throughout these boards....

Ali may have or may have not been the best HW of all time thus far...He is No less then second...He certainly fought better men in their prime then Louis or Marciano....Louis was KO'd flat in his prime years and Marciano had a great chin, stamina and will power but could not box for shit!...Fact not opinion...

It was Ali being able to reinvent himself so often, the fact Ali turned this sport into the mass publics eye, the fact Ali invented the mind game, the mega fights, the way he brought it all together at once when need be that made him the Greatest....There was more to it then skill alone.....

Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing

Touche!!

[jmbtandy]

Ali's era was the most exiting in Heavyweight history, Foreman knocked out Frazier and Norton, Ali knocked out Foreman, Frazier beat Ali, Norton beat Ali, Young beat Foreman, Holmes beat Norton and Ali. Liston beat Patterson and Ali beat Liston. Ali was the most outspoken and loudest, and drew more media attention than anyone else but again the best I question it. Foreman fought over 28 years and lost the same amount of fights as Ali, Holmes went 48-0, I think a list of the top 5 can be made but no one can argue that a certain fighter can be labeled as the best. Johnson was the greatest of his era, Marciano of his, Louis of his, Ali of his, Holmes of his and Tyson of his. The argument can go on forever.... In Ali's era you could say it was the best batch of talent, or you could say there was a lot of well matched great fighters, depending on their styles they beat each other and created the most memorable entertainment. Regarding the comment of anyone doubting Ali being the best doesn't know anything about boxing, is just ignorant.

[jmbtandy]

Oh and never beaten in his Prime, what about Frazier Ali was 29 years old, when was his prime then?

[DaxxKahn]

Oh and never beaten in his Prime, what about Frazier Ali was 29 years old, when was his prime then?

OHHH...as you try to get sarcastic again....I think I went back and edited my post to "Never beaten in his prime handily"....meaning he was never flat outclassed and beaten one sided...and the fact the elemts had something to do with the loss on top of the fgact he was just two fights back from a 3 year absence...3 of his best years age wise....

So do you want to keep trying to pick apart my post.....please do because each time I just make you look more and more like an amateur...

To be honest you are making it too easy not too

[jmbtandy]

Oh we are playing that game, yes you insulting me makes me look like an idiot, mmm really ok,

Ali was beaten convincingly by Frazier the 1st time (In his Prime), the other two fights he certainly made up for that and switched the results, Norton was unlucky not to get all the decisions against Ali where as Foreman destroyed Norton twice.

Feel free to pick apart anything that I have written, that's what makes this interesting, not everyone is going to have the same views. Just because my view doesn't match yours how does that make me an amateur? In website chats yes I am am amateur, I have never really bothered with them before, which is a shame as I am quite enjoying this one, but in regards to boxing I assure you I know what I am talking about.

Keep em coming