Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

[Chris Nagel]

Look for punches:

Do you think fighters can be trained to take a better punch Physically and Emotionally, Id like to hear your veiws.Plus to what degree.

i thnk that fighters should be taught to be on the look for punches and to have that as the primary concern while bxing. it sounds obvious but some guys dont do it and if youre not boxing with that 'defense first' mindset it makes you often get caught by suprise with punches that otherwise shouldnt never be landing. this mentality allows you to roll with punches because you see them coming and that in itself (seeing the punch coming) gives you a better chin as youre able to prepare yourself for the blow.

its my theory that all the guys who supposedly had good chin also had very good eyes in the sense that they saw punches coming.

You're right, I think that it applies to applies to a lot of guys, Roberto Duran comes to mind. He was especially hard to hit with a clean punch as he was always slipping, twisting and turning with the punches.

[Chris Nagel]

I know that this following quote comes from a thread that is already on this board, but it's so good that I had to include it here:

I think whats so interesting about Burley is his upper body movement in combination with his footwork. He moves around the ring, but not so fast that he isn't always set. This means that, through this, he can use the ring while still maintaining an ability to move his upper body. Something you won't see Ray Robinson or Ali doing because they're moving too fast to be set enough to preform these movements.

Well that makes him infuriatingly hard to hit. Smith misses essentially all of his punches and not only just that, he misses them big. Sometimes by a few feet.

This is something that is only accomplishble with a stance like Burley's. There are fighters like Ricardo Lopez or Barrera who use the ring and are incredible defensively but are unable to preform the upperbody movement that Burley can. Thus they can't make an opponent miss as badly as Burley can.


and because of that, they can't make an opponent reach as hard as Burley can.


Thats because the harder you are to reach the more an opponent will commit into his punches. You can see the way Burley is "pulling" Smith into him. That is something a squared up fighter can never do.

The general idea behind Burley's strategy and stance seems to me that - and correct me if you see something else - to pull your opponent into you and thus force him to reach with his punches, making him vulnerable.



There is an episode of The Way We Were with Joe Walcott and Joe Louis. They show on the screen the Knock down Walcott gave Louis in their second fight and Walcott says that he was leaning away knowing that he would pull Louis' jab enough to able to throw his right hand over it.

Schmeling did the same thing to him.

Not surprsing that all of these fighters share the same type of stance and, with that, the ability to "pull" fighters into them.

Recently I was going over some interesting things that I pulled off of the internet which kind of reminded me of Thomas's thoughts:

Walcott, Bivins said, had a frustrating technique he employed to get you to step forward as he connected with his right. Joe somehow moved his body in a manner that gave the appearance to his opponent that he was starting to back up, when all he was really doing was shifting his weight...Bivins stated that when you would begin to take that initial step forward upon seeing this, Walcott would crack you with the right. It was unexpected, and walking into the punch made it hurt even worse.

[Chris Nagel]

The fear is only in the anticipation. You are afraid now and that is normal, especially in somebody starting late. That's why most fighters start young: kids are stupid and fearless. But even then, and this tends to be real true among guys that act very tough, that fear- knowing on Monday that you spar (or fight) such-and-such on Thursday chases lots of guys out of the gym.
I never tell anybody not to box so take this in that light: Find a gym that has sparring, even if its a "white-collar" type gym and get in shape. Learn the punches, put your work in, and stand at ringside and watch other guys spar (this is where a "fighting" gym is better- you see it for real). Get close so you get a real feel for it. If that doesn't make you want to get in there and try your hand, then you ain't cut out for this and that's that. No shame in it because it isn't for everybody, and at least you got into condition. But, most likely, after you've put in several weeks on the bags and jumping rope, it'll pull you in and you'll have to give it a try.
If you do, you'll get it, but you'll have your chances to return the favor, and, at the end of the day, you'll have answered questions about yourself you haven't been able to answer elsewhere. That's worth a couple punches in the mouth and a nosebleed. Any day.
Good Luck.

Sadly, there are far too many gymsyou could end up in where there'd be no difference in whether or not you were taken seriously.
There are many gyms that operate as health-club boxing type gyms for the bulk of the time, to pay the bills. So they would take you seriously- way to seriously for what is an aerobics class.
To be taken seriously in a "fight" gym you have to be serious; not acting like some movie clown but working during your work out and not just doing the routine. Work hard physically and mentally and you'll be ahead of the game.

When you are just starting walk a very brisk mile and build from there. A good goal- realistic, doable and sufficient- is a good three mile run three times or four times per week. When preparing for a fight you sharpen your wind. For example you have a 4 round bout upcoming. So you start your timer and alternately run and sprint for 3 minutes. Then walk at a good pace for a minute. Repeat. (i neglected to add "jog"-run, sprint jog -at a reasonable pace)Run four rounds daily.

Start a roadwork program. I've always thought that the long early morning runs are at least as much to instill discipline as anything else. Really three miles is plenty, especially if you walk a lot. Ray Arcel used a program to sharpen the wind which was very similar to this; walk a very brisk half mile, jog a brisk mile, then sprint a half mile, then walk, etc... Work on your technique- especially punching-wise. Box in front of a mirror and make sure your hands are up, that you aren't tipping off your punches, etc.. All the good fighters are counter punchers, even the aggressive types that force the action. The whole idea of it all is this; through your actions to make him throw a particular punch at a particular time so you can counter .

In the old days they used to fight lots and lots: A sample from the record of HoF member Fritzie Zivic, from 1938. He fought on the following dates; 1/1, 2/14, 3/7, 3/21, 4/12, 5/29, 6/13, 6/20, 7/9, 7/12, 8/2, 8/12, 8/22, 8/26, ...you get the idea. They learned their trade, got hit less, and didn't come out gunning for the KO every instant. You box, take your time...and get better at boxing. It has ups and downs; personally, I'd fight every day which isn't wise ... Starting out, every 60 days is probably good, gives you time to learn new things between fights.

Could I earn my way back into good graces with a couple combinations that you might find worthwhile?
Jack Dempsey made these famous in the 20s, and both are based off of slipping the opponent"s jab. The first is the "inside triple": to begin slip inside the opponent's jab (so it goes over your right shoulder; put weight on left leg , swing right side forward exactly like throwing a right)with a straight right to the heart. Step sideways w/rght foot, bringing it up even w/the left; at the same time shift the weight over the right leg :this step gives you more power, and if you stay low shifting the wght to rght leg will carry you under the left lead and outside of it as you hook to the solar plexus. The body is then straightened , weight shifted to the left leg and cross the right to the opponents chin. The action here has to be fast and continuous, so I would suggest starting slow and feeling the weight shifts because once you find those its easy.
"Outside Triple"; begin by slipping outside his jab and hooking the left to the stomach ( the way to slip outside is to throw a left hook-this one happens to be a touch wide and to the belly.) Weight should be on the right leg so step in and to the left with the left foot, the weight transfer carrying your body under the lead as you hook the right to the heart. From here straighten the body lifting the left (which should've been carried high to protect you head from his right) (don't need to draw it back or swing your arm , just wght to rght leg torque hips) to his chin. Again the movement must be fast and don't forget to practice getting out after you punch- don't just walk or stop or you'll do it in real.

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[Chris Nagel]

advice

Lets see; yes you could turn pro. You could, tomorrow find somebody some where that would feed you to a lion for a dollar. Bt no, 17 isn't too old to start, though its getting there. Robot-like on your feet? Try pushing with your back foot like in fencing; watch fencers and how they move. Look, you find your stance and it should be where your balance etc is maximized; so keep your feet there no matyter where or when or how far you move. As far as slipping punches...when pracicing always practice with the counter punch otherwise why bother? Also, always move in behind the slip and counter otherwise why bother? When you slip keep one thing in mind; the moves you make are the exact same as a particular punch. Slipping a jab to the inside (over your right shoulder) is throwing a straight right. Over the other shoulder is a left hook. You slip on your feet; you move your head with your feet. Otherwise you will not be able to punch. Twisting and leaning is asinine when you can shift the weight on your feet avoid the punch and counter hard at any point. To the guy that was 5'6" and wanting to get ripped to fight HWs; constantly coming forward, straight into the guns, and having no other choice is a tough row to hoe. You could be an amazing wizard of defense but you will get hit and hurt a lot every fight because you have to constantly press in and stay in range. I read once that Marciano often had to work to get his mind ready to fight and win, knowing that he was going to be walking into a tremendous amount of damage

[Chris Nagel]

No Emotion:

I read once that the thing that kept Jack Sharkey- whom Ray Arcel called the best pure boxer he'd ever seen at heavyweight- from being a truly great fighter was emotion. He was too emotional, while great fighters operate in the eye of the hurricane. No emotion. I've always been a big believer in this concept.
The first round is the first stone of what you are trying to build, and I know that sounds very trite. Most, if not all, say to go out and land the first punch. For me, unless there is a big skill difference, I'd almost rather get hit the first punch. Keeps me from getting complacent, but that's just me. In that opening round, early, its good to clinch with your opponent, to feel their strength and to see how interested they are in working inside and how good they might be at it. Catch his jab in your glove to see how hard he's popping his punches. Feint a lot to feel out his reactions to your jab, to the idea of you going to his body, and so on. You don't want to throw punches just to throw them because that lets him see your reach and to begin to time you. You want to be just out of range of his punches so that you don't give away any of your defensive and counter ideas.
Watch Ricardo Lopez. He was a great 1st round fighter. But the important thing is that emotion has no place in it. You get hit, don't get mad. Figure out why you got hit and what to do about it. Save the hostility for the appropriate time.

[Chris Nagel]

Joe on training.

I'm very old fashioned in my views but as soon as I see a fighter, trained by modern methods and with the modern cluster of "specialists" in his camp, that can fight 15 like they used to I'll change my views.
Diet...Lord knows I'm clueless here but I know this. The best conditioned, strongest fighters I've ever seen were poor and poor people eat rice and beans. My experience mostly refers to fighters from Mexico- that is who I grew up watching and reading about- and rice and beans is a staple of the diet there. Emanuel Steward says the same thing; he says he cooks his fighters collard greens, beans and chicken. Jackie McCoy, the great trainer, called beans and rice "earth food" and swore that they made for strong fighters.
Breathing is a curious subject...Lots of fighters forget to breath, especially when they get excited, like in the middle of an exchange or when things are going very well or very badly. This is often an ignored subject but here is what I think, and I learned this from a 69 year old Australian opera singer. She was very scrappy despite being 4' 11" and weighing maybe 98 pounds. (google Elizabeth Sabine).
You breathe through your lungs. Breathe in short gulps of air; the most common way of running out of breath is not from lacking air but from having too much. If you breathe deeply but don't use up and exhale that breath, then your lungs get clogged with "bad air" and you can no longer take full breaths. So take short breaths and exhale fully- like when you punch for instance and don't forget to breathe. Doing this, you can keep your abdomen tight- so body punches don't knock the wind out of you- while moving and breathing easily.
The last reason I think you, like many others on this site, may lack stamina, is that you train to much. Look, the early morning 4 miles of roadwork is as much to build discipline as any thing else. Rocky Marciano didn't run millions of miles but he walked every place he went. Running- alternating sprints, jogging and brisk walking- is to sharpen your wind. You should train every day and not just to prepare for a fight. Stretch in the morning every morning. Run-as explained above- three times a week, or on days you don't spar. Don't jump rope on days when you run or spar- it is over using the legs. When training to fight 4 rounds, train to fight 4, not 10 or your body will not peak properly.
See, training for a fight is not something you begin to do when you learn about a fight. It is something you begin to do the day you begin boxing. A good, hard, sharp hour to 90 minutes a day is fine. Working 6-8 hours a day is foolish. And just get me started on cross training!

[Chris Nagel]

Tom on boxing stance

There are tons of stances out there. I am of the opinion that there is only one correct stance and that all other stances are wrong. But this is my line of thinking and I don't expect to turn anybody over. Its up to you. The usual stance that gets pinned as the standard (at least these days) is the standing squared up with your gloves up to your temples. At first glance this stance seems perfect. Your head is well covered up as is the body. You're like some walking fortress it seems. So people take to it thinking they have all the bases covered and they are good to go. Has some limitations though. For one, standing like that you sort of hinder yourself. Your gloves don't need to be tight to the face as though you were blocking. They only need to be there when you actually are blocking! Why hold them up as though to block when the need to block is not present? This is wasteful and it commits your hands to doing a job where they otherwise could (and to my mind, should) be doing something more effective. Like throwing a crisp rising jab. All the great jabs of the sport from Loughran to Tunney to Moore and Burley were rising jabs -- and you cant throw a rising jab if your left hand is up at your head. The jab is so cirtical in my opinion because it lets you control distance and allows you to set up your punches. Standing squared up also affects how well you can jab. If you jab from a squared up stance you jab short. If you jab from a squared up stance and turn the body so as to get more length to your jab you end up tipping off your jab aswell as taking longer to get the punch off as more movements are being involved. try it for yourself and see. If you jab from an almost sideways stance you get much more length on your jab, throw it from the hip so that it will be a hard rising jab, and you tip it off less because the movement is less involved. it also ensures [standing nearly sideways] that your hip and shoulder are in front of your head. This allows for you to use the shoulder roll. Something that would be impossible with your hands to your ears and squared up. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. so that you can lean just away or under from jabs left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance -- you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches. Watch James Toney you will see this.



Ultimately, standing nearly sideways with the lead hand low allows much more. It is very subtle in this way ad at first glance the common eye will not see this. Every man has his own unique ways about his stance but to my mind the only correct stance looks very much like this:




That is Tommy Loughran. I assure you, if Tommy did it, there was good reason behind it. He was one of the most calculating and cunning fighters to live and would set you up and knock you dead no lie. Anyway, I think this stance is the right one. All the true greats in the history of the sport fought out of a similar stance From Carpantier to Floyd Mayweather believe it or not.

I leave it up to you.