Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

[Chris Nagel]

Joe on training.

I'm very old fashioned in my views but as soon as I see a fighter, trained by modern methods and with the modern cluster of "specialists" in his camp, that can fight 15 like they used to I'll change my views.
Diet...Lord knows I'm clueless here but I know this. The best conditioned, strongest fighters I've ever seen were poor and poor people eat rice and beans. My experience mostly refers to fighters from Mexico- that is who I grew up watching and reading about- and rice and beans is a staple of the diet there. Emanuel Steward says the same thing; he says he cooks his fighters collard greens, beans and chicken. Jackie McCoy, the great trainer, called beans and rice "earth food" and swore that they made for strong fighters.
Breathing is a curious subject...Lots of fighters forget to breath, especially when they get excited, like in the middle of an exchange or when things are going very well or very badly. This is often an ignored subject but here is what I think, and I learned this from a 69 year old Australian opera singer. She was very scrappy despite being 4' 11" and weighing maybe 98 pounds. (google Elizabeth Sabine).
You breathe through your lungs. Breathe in short gulps of air; the most common way of running out of breath is not from lacking air but from having too much. If you breathe deeply but don't use up and exhale that breath, then your lungs get clogged with "bad air" and you can no longer take full breaths. So take short breaths and exhale fully- like when you punch for instance and don't forget to breathe. Doing this, you can keep your abdomen tight- so body punches don't knock the wind out of you- while moving and breathing easily.
The last reason I think you, like many others on this site, may lack stamina, is that you train to much. Look, the early morning 4 miles of roadwork is as much to build discipline as any thing else. Rocky Marciano didn't run millions of miles but he walked every place he went. Running- alternating sprints, jogging and brisk walking- is to sharpen your wind. You should train every day and not just to prepare for a fight. Stretch in the morning every morning. Run-as explained above- three times a week, or on days you don't spar. Don't jump rope on days when you run or spar- it is over using the legs. When training to fight 4 rounds, train to fight 4, not 10 or your body will not peak properly.
See, training for a fight is not something you begin to do when you learn about a fight. It is something you begin to do the day you begin boxing. A good, hard, sharp hour to 90 minutes a day is fine. Working 6-8 hours a day is foolish. And just get me started on cross training!

[Chris Nagel]

Tom on boxing stance

There are tons of stances out there. I am of the opinion that there is only one correct stance and that all other stances are wrong. But this is my line of thinking and I don't expect to turn anybody over. Its up to you. The usual stance that gets pinned as the standard (at least these days) is the standing squared up with your gloves up to your temples. At first glance this stance seems perfect. Your head is well covered up as is the body. You're like some walking fortress it seems. So people take to it thinking they have all the bases covered and they are good to go. Has some limitations though. For one, standing like that you sort of hinder yourself. Your gloves don't need to be tight to the face as though you were blocking. They only need to be there when you actually are blocking! Why hold them up as though to block when the need to block is not present? This is wasteful and it commits your hands to doing a job where they otherwise could (and to my mind, should) be doing something more effective. Like throwing a crisp rising jab. All the great jabs of the sport from Loughran to Tunney to Moore and Burley were rising jabs -- and you cant throw a rising jab if your left hand is up at your head. The jab is so cirtical in my opinion because it lets you control distance and allows you to set up your punches. Standing squared up also affects how well you can jab. If you jab from a squared up stance you jab short. If you jab from a squared up stance and turn the body so as to get more length to your jab you end up tipping off your jab aswell as taking longer to get the punch off as more movements are being involved. try it for yourself and see. If you jab from an almost sideways stance you get much more length on your jab, throw it from the hip so that it will be a hard rising jab, and you tip it off less because the movement is less involved. it also ensures [standing nearly sideways] that your hip and shoulder are in front of your head. This allows for you to use the shoulder roll. Something that would be impossible with your hands to your ears and squared up. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. so that you can lean just away or under from jabs left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance -- you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches. Watch James Toney you will see this.



Ultimately, standing nearly sideways with the lead hand low allows much more. It is very subtle in this way ad at first glance the common eye will not see this. Every man has his own unique ways about his stance but to my mind the only correct stance looks very much like this:




That is Tommy Loughran. I assure you, if Tommy did it, there was good reason behind it. He was one of the most calculating and cunning fighters to live and would set you up and knock you dead no lie. Anyway, I think this stance is the right one. All the true greats in the history of the sport fought out of a similar stance From Carpantier to Floyd Mayweather believe it or not.

I leave it up to you.

[Chris Nagel]

More on stance:

Donny I know how you feel. The old style is just not taught by anyone. Very hard to find anything to give you an idea of how to fight this way.

I think ultimately the thing to remember about the old style of fighting is that its a product of the bareknuckle/early glove era. Its more of a set of attitudes than it is anything really. Long rounds and barely padded gloves create interesting fighters and fighting styles. You can imagine how drastically fighters today would have to change their styles to adapt and survive those conditions. For one thing being hit anywhere hurts enough already but when you're being hit with a 5oz glove one mistake could be the last. Not only that but gloves this small could barely cover up enough of the head for blocking or offer the padding necessary to absorb the impact of punches. Being punched on your arms by something that was essentially a thinly padded fist would also be very painful. This is one of the primary differences between today's fighter and the fighters from back then. Today fighters stand still and absorb punches on their arms and gloves but in the early days of fighting the first defense came from using distance with blocking used only as a last resort. Two very different philosophies. Basically - and you will see this in the stances of fighters from the 20's/30's - the body was positioned in such a way to maximize its ability to slip and roll away from punches. In essence, to be able to create distance from punches instead of standing there and absorbing them.

This is why you will see them standing at a slant and leaning slightly down and away from their opponents with their hands lowered. Being slanted provides a much smaller target area for your opponent. Leaning slightly down and away enhances distance and makes it easier to get behind and underneath your shoulder. Carrying the hands low enhances your vision and allows the upper body to move freely and with greater ease (since your arms aren't glued to you).

Everything there is dedicated to making the fighter hard to land punches on whereas today the popular idea is to soak up the punches on your arms and gloves instead of preventing them from landing on you completely.


Anyway thats one of the big things and also one of the first things to consider if you're interested in the older styles. There are more things like how that stance relates to punching and the way this stance allows you to progressively pull your opponent's punches closer/make him reach and therefore vulnerable to counters.

[Chris Nagel]

Tom on the Shoulder Roll:

I've noticed that its difficult for some guys to roll not because of the actual movement it takes to do it but because they arent in a stance suited for doing it best in the first place. For me it always worked smoothly when had my hip in front almost totally sideways like burley (the only guy ive ever seen stand so sideways) and so that i wwas leaning just a bit on my back foot so that my front (left) shoulder was slightly higher than then my right. Very old school stance you'll see it alot in the 20's, 30's fighters. This makes me naturally hard to hit with rights which was always nice. Its very natural to just roll away from them since, from that stance, you are already very hard to reach with a right (literally they have to REACH) and because im so sideways the shoulder can be turned in front of the face almost instantly. Also the right uppercut counter after rolling comes off extremely smooth from this stance. Its the most natural thing to see that counter after rolling the shoulder in such a fashion.

But you see the real sceret to the shoulder roll is not in blocking punches with your shoulder. See its really preformed more like a slip than a block. where youre rolling away from the right hand and not just eating it on your shoulder. The shoulder coming in front of the face is actually just a sort of a side effect of the rolling away movement and not the primary thing.

I'm starting to see more fighters trying to use the shoulder roll. andre berto and jean pascal spring to mind. They're pretty ineffective to me though because they stand straight up in the air like a stick and try to forcibly push their shoulder up to cover the head. They end up just eating the punch because this forces them to block and dissallows the rolling away motion so critical to the shoulder roll. because they have no rolling away motion, the right uppercut which comes off of the shoulder roll becomes difficult for them to throw and thus pretty ineffective.

[Chris Nagel]

More on stance:

I agree with everything you said there.

I once held my right hand up around my cheek for the same reasons. Like you say it allows you to parry the jab or block the left hook in least amount of time possible as the hand only needs to travel a couple inches for either maneuver. One problem I encountered with this tactic (and I imagine that you also have) was that to throw a right hand - a real right hand with full weight and leverage - I had to cock back my hand. I would have to do this because the right hand was not placed in a natural position to punch. Simply put; you can't punch from your cheek. Not with any real force anyway. The right hand naturally wants to be thrown with the hand at around chest level (right side) just under the neck.

That scares a lot of people to think about holding the right hand down there because they depend on blocking and not on slipping/rolling and controlling distance. The great irony of it is that by depending on blocking as your main means of defense you get you hit much more than you should. Slipping/rolling and controlling distance is the superior way to defend yourself from punches. Thus a proper stance would be one that best allows the body to slip/roll and control distance. I can't say that holding the hands up to the head does this.

I agree with your point about making the body a smaller target by standing 'diagonal'. This flows back the underpinnings of smart boxing in that you should show your opponent the least amount of targets to hit as possible. This way you can control where he will try to punch to with greater predictability. If you give him many options he will act unpredictably; if you give him only some options you take away the bulk of his punches and leave him in a predictable state.

Anyhow thanks for the response Grand. Its obvious to me that you approach boxing in very well thought out way.

You raise good points which i never even thought of before!
I been thinkign about what you said for a few days and it does make sense! the arm does naturally want to be thrown from beneath your chin but like you said this dos leave yoru face open. the slipping and rolling thing makes sense aswell if you can perfect it i think the slipping and rolling tactic can be very hard to perfect but when done so it would be very effective. if your like me and have not perfected it then you tend to eat alot of glove
well thank YOU for the reply made me think about it a bit more

yeah you definitely would eat lots of glove. You would need to drop your left hand and use your shoulder to block the right hand. With the left hand low and the right hand at chest level you will notice that your upper body can move more freely. Your arms are not bolted to your body like a robot and you can bend at the waist to get under or away from punches with greater ease. Because your gloves are not around your face they don't obstruct your vision in any way. This kind of defense depends less on taking the punches on the arms and gloves and more on seeing them coming and slipping just enough to avoid it entirely. Something will see Floyd Mayweather do tonight against De la Hoya.

Through things like shadow boxing you can get a feel of this style with your body and in time it becomes very instinctive. It very well should be since this stance is a natural position for the body. You will notice this in your arms; they won't get heavy and tire you out because you don't have to hold them up all the time. Many people like to say this style is only for the super quick or slick but thats all bull. Like grey used to say its not some boxing magic. Up until the late 1940's it was the standard way to box.

But I wouldn't recommend this style unless you really know the in and outs of it like you say. It can be extremely effective but the slightest miscalculations can get you clipped. The trainers out there are pretty ignorant when it comes to this so you won't get much out of them trying to learn it. I say watch some tapes and good luck if you're thinking about trying it.

[Chris Nagel]

The Dempsey Roll:

I know that Dempsey loved to lean away and under from punches by moving his upper body back towards his right. It loaded up his right hand and made him extremely hard to reach. The Dempsey roll would come after. With his upperbody positioned over towards his right side (which by the way he stood was behind him - he stood almost sideways) he would weave low so that weight would be over his left leg. This movement slipped punches and allowed him to load up on his left hook.

The whole theme of this is to make the opponent miss whilst putting the body's weight in a position to strike. If you notice of Dempsey, he always had full leverage on every punch. You must start out in a stance similar to his to do that.

Dempsey did it in every fight. He was also hard to hit and had very underrated defense. Too bad that because he liked to press forward he gets billed as being some kind of a savage incapable of thought. He was pretty cagey in my opinion.

As for the move it doesn't limit your vision. I'm not sure how it would. And you're right that it leaves you in a position where you can't punch but only for the left hand. If you've seen any Dempsey you know that he likes to spring up from that crouch with a right hand. Dempsey hit pretty hard last I remember.


He looks pretty open but know that Dempsey's upperbody was constantly moving and he used a shoulder roll. Tunney as quoted saying that Dempsey was one of the hardest fighters to hit with his right. Kept catching air or shoulder.

[Chris Nagel]

The snag-line:

You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver.

Ah, I call that one the snag-line. Its a good move but you must watch for your opponent's left hook as he has just completed the weight shift involved in throwing his right and is thus in position to sling his left hook at you. Ha I remember Rafael Marquez getting knocked down with just that: a left hook after "snag-lining" Israel Vasquez's Right hand with his jab. Forget if it was in the first or the second fight - probably the first.

this makes the snag line a pretty dangerous strategy to employ. For both guys. A messy move.