Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

[Chris Nagel]

More on stance:

Donny I know how you feel. The old style is just not taught by anyone. Very hard to find anything to give you an idea of how to fight this way.

I think ultimately the thing to remember about the old style of fighting is that its a product of the bareknuckle/early glove era. Its more of a set of attitudes than it is anything really. Long rounds and barely padded gloves create interesting fighters and fighting styles. You can imagine how drastically fighters today would have to change their styles to adapt and survive those conditions. For one thing being hit anywhere hurts enough already but when you're being hit with a 5oz glove one mistake could be the last. Not only that but gloves this small could barely cover up enough of the head for blocking or offer the padding necessary to absorb the impact of punches. Being punched on your arms by something that was essentially a thinly padded fist would also be very painful. This is one of the primary differences between today's fighter and the fighters from back then. Today fighters stand still and absorb punches on their arms and gloves but in the early days of fighting the first defense came from using distance with blocking used only as a last resort. Two very different philosophies. Basically - and you will see this in the stances of fighters from the 20's/30's - the body was positioned in such a way to maximize its ability to slip and roll away from punches. In essence, to be able to create distance from punches instead of standing there and absorbing them.

This is why you will see them standing at a slant and leaning slightly down and away from their opponents with their hands lowered. Being slanted provides a much smaller target area for your opponent. Leaning slightly down and away enhances distance and makes it easier to get behind and underneath your shoulder. Carrying the hands low enhances your vision and allows the upper body to move freely and with greater ease (since your arms aren't glued to you).

Everything there is dedicated to making the fighter hard to land punches on whereas today the popular idea is to soak up the punches on your arms and gloves instead of preventing them from landing on you completely.


Anyway thats one of the big things and also one of the first things to consider if you're interested in the older styles. There are more things like how that stance relates to punching and the way this stance allows you to progressively pull your opponent's punches closer/make him reach and therefore vulnerable to counters.

[Chris Nagel]

Tom on the Shoulder Roll:

I've noticed that its difficult for some guys to roll not because of the actual movement it takes to do it but because they arent in a stance suited for doing it best in the first place. For me it always worked smoothly when had my hip in front almost totally sideways like burley (the only guy ive ever seen stand so sideways) and so that i wwas leaning just a bit on my back foot so that my front (left) shoulder was slightly higher than then my right. Very old school stance you'll see it alot in the 20's, 30's fighters. This makes me naturally hard to hit with rights which was always nice. Its very natural to just roll away from them since, from that stance, you are already very hard to reach with a right (literally they have to REACH) and because im so sideways the shoulder can be turned in front of the face almost instantly. Also the right uppercut counter after rolling comes off extremely smooth from this stance. Its the most natural thing to see that counter after rolling the shoulder in such a fashion.

But you see the real sceret to the shoulder roll is not in blocking punches with your shoulder. See its really preformed more like a slip than a block. where youre rolling away from the right hand and not just eating it on your shoulder. The shoulder coming in front of the face is actually just a sort of a side effect of the rolling away movement and not the primary thing.

I'm starting to see more fighters trying to use the shoulder roll. andre berto and jean pascal spring to mind. They're pretty ineffective to me though because they stand straight up in the air like a stick and try to forcibly push their shoulder up to cover the head. They end up just eating the punch because this forces them to block and dissallows the rolling away motion so critical to the shoulder roll. because they have no rolling away motion, the right uppercut which comes off of the shoulder roll becomes difficult for them to throw and thus pretty ineffective.

[Chris Nagel]

More on stance:

I agree with everything you said there.

I once held my right hand up around my cheek for the same reasons. Like you say it allows you to parry the jab or block the left hook in least amount of time possible as the hand only needs to travel a couple inches for either maneuver. One problem I encountered with this tactic (and I imagine that you also have) was that to throw a right hand - a real right hand with full weight and leverage - I had to cock back my hand. I would have to do this because the right hand was not placed in a natural position to punch. Simply put; you can't punch from your cheek. Not with any real force anyway. The right hand naturally wants to be thrown with the hand at around chest level (right side) just under the neck.

That scares a lot of people to think about holding the right hand down there because they depend on blocking and not on slipping/rolling and controlling distance. The great irony of it is that by depending on blocking as your main means of defense you get you hit much more than you should. Slipping/rolling and controlling distance is the superior way to defend yourself from punches. Thus a proper stance would be one that best allows the body to slip/roll and control distance. I can't say that holding the hands up to the head does this.

I agree with your point about making the body a smaller target by standing 'diagonal'. This flows back the underpinnings of smart boxing in that you should show your opponent the least amount of targets to hit as possible. This way you can control where he will try to punch to with greater predictability. If you give him many options he will act unpredictably; if you give him only some options you take away the bulk of his punches and leave him in a predictable state.

Anyhow thanks for the response Grand. Its obvious to me that you approach boxing in very well thought out way.

You raise good points which i never even thought of before!
I been thinkign about what you said for a few days and it does make sense! the arm does naturally want to be thrown from beneath your chin but like you said this dos leave yoru face open. the slipping and rolling thing makes sense aswell if you can perfect it i think the slipping and rolling tactic can be very hard to perfect but when done so it would be very effective. if your like me and have not perfected it then you tend to eat alot of glove
well thank YOU for the reply made me think about it a bit more

yeah you definitely would eat lots of glove. You would need to drop your left hand and use your shoulder to block the right hand. With the left hand low and the right hand at chest level you will notice that your upper body can move more freely. Your arms are not bolted to your body like a robot and you can bend at the waist to get under or away from punches with greater ease. Because your gloves are not around your face they don't obstruct your vision in any way. This kind of defense depends less on taking the punches on the arms and gloves and more on seeing them coming and slipping just enough to avoid it entirely. Something will see Floyd Mayweather do tonight against De la Hoya.

Through things like shadow boxing you can get a feel of this style with your body and in time it becomes very instinctive. It very well should be since this stance is a natural position for the body. You will notice this in your arms; they won't get heavy and tire you out because you don't have to hold them up all the time. Many people like to say this style is only for the super quick or slick but thats all bull. Like grey used to say its not some boxing magic. Up until the late 1940's it was the standard way to box.

But I wouldn't recommend this style unless you really know the in and outs of it like you say. It can be extremely effective but the slightest miscalculations can get you clipped. The trainers out there are pretty ignorant when it comes to this so you won't get much out of them trying to learn it. I say watch some tapes and good luck if you're thinking about trying it.

[Chris Nagel]

The Dempsey Roll:

I know that Dempsey loved to lean away and under from punches by moving his upper body back towards his right. It loaded up his right hand and made him extremely hard to reach. The Dempsey roll would come after. With his upperbody positioned over towards his right side (which by the way he stood was behind him - he stood almost sideways) he would weave low so that weight would be over his left leg. This movement slipped punches and allowed him to load up on his left hook.

The whole theme of this is to make the opponent miss whilst putting the body's weight in a position to strike. If you notice of Dempsey, he always had full leverage on every punch. You must start out in a stance similar to his to do that.

Dempsey did it in every fight. He was also hard to hit and had very underrated defense. Too bad that because he liked to press forward he gets billed as being some kind of a savage incapable of thought. He was pretty cagey in my opinion.

As for the move it doesn't limit your vision. I'm not sure how it would. And you're right that it leaves you in a position where you can't punch but only for the left hand. If you've seen any Dempsey you know that he likes to spring up from that crouch with a right hand. Dempsey hit pretty hard last I remember.


He looks pretty open but know that Dempsey's upperbody was constantly moving and he used a shoulder roll. Tunney as quoted saying that Dempsey was one of the hardest fighters to hit with his right. Kept catching air or shoulder.

[Chris Nagel]

The snag-line:

You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver.

Ah, I call that one the snag-line. Its a good move but you must watch for your opponent's left hook as he has just completed the weight shift involved in throwing his right and is thus in position to sling his left hook at you. Ha I remember Rafael Marquez getting knocked down with just that: a left hook after "snag-lining" Israel Vasquez's Right hand with his jab. Forget if it was in the first or the second fight - probably the first.

this makes the snag line a pretty dangerous strategy to employ. For both guys. A messy move.

[Chris Nagel]

Rolling with the punches:

You're supposed to roll with punches that are blocked on the arms. What happens when fighters keep their arms and gloves in tight to the body and sides of the head is that they will just sit there and absorb punches. You're never supposed to just sit there and absorb punches. By having your arms so tightly locked to your body you hinder your ability to throw punches: how can you throw punches if both your arms are busy blocking? You're not in a position to punch.

By rolling with the punch while blocking you take much of the steam off of their punch as it no longer has a flush target to transfer all of its force into cleanly. By rolling away you also put yourself into a position to punch and therefore counter. For example you block a left hook on your right arm and roll with it to your left as you block (weight now on left foot) putting you in a position to throw a left hook yourself. Think about that for a second and work it out in your head.

Today its pretty popular to just sit there and absorb punches. In the 20's or 30's you would have small 8 oz nothing gloves that did not much more than cover the fist. You wouldn't want to get hit with one of those anywhere. You also notice that fighters of these eras never held there arms up to the sides of their heads. They depended on slipping and rolling more than they did on blocking and it shows in the way that they fought.

[Chris Nagel]

Circle Left:

I'm not sure it makes much difference assuming I take my left foot off the ground, pivot to let my foot go out a bit a little as I push sideways with my right, land with my left foot in it's new position and then follow with the right. I can see if my right was pointed in to the left more it'd be hard.

Perhaps I also naturally let it pivot out without meaning to often since my coach often reprimands me for letting that happen. Circling left is not something I guess I practice often as we only have one southpaw in our gym and I don't spar him more than once a month or so.

Do you see it being a lot easier with your right foot pointing out initially rather than pivoting as you are moving?

sharla, watch fighters like bernard hopkins or floyd mayweather (2 of the best pound for pound fighters in recent memory i should add) and notice how they effortessly can circle left. notice that they arent standig facing foward as your coach instructs. by standing so squared up you movement gets comprimised. If you get the chance to, try and ask him why a fighter like bernard hopkins (who essentially stands sideways) is such an incredible boxer and why he thinks his method of boxing is superior to bernard's. I hope i'm not stirring up trouble by saying this but its best that you gets all that information, and you wont get it by blindly following everything your trainer says. trainers tend to be pretty egotistical when it comes to thing like teching boxing (if you even hint at the possibility that they might be wrong they get all huffy and take it as an insult to their worth as a teacher)