Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

[Chris Nagel]

More on stance:

I agree with everything you said there.

I once held my right hand up around my cheek for the same reasons. Like you say it allows you to parry the jab or block the left hook in least amount of time possible as the hand only needs to travel a couple inches for either maneuver. One problem I encountered with this tactic (and I imagine that you also have) was that to throw a right hand - a real right hand with full weight and leverage - I had to cock back my hand. I would have to do this because the right hand was not placed in a natural position to punch. Simply put; you can't punch from your cheek. Not with any real force anyway. The right hand naturally wants to be thrown with the hand at around chest level (right side) just under the neck.

That scares a lot of people to think about holding the right hand down there because they depend on blocking and not on slipping/rolling and controlling distance. The great irony of it is that by depending on blocking as your main means of defense you get you hit much more than you should. Slipping/rolling and controlling distance is the superior way to defend yourself from punches. Thus a proper stance would be one that best allows the body to slip/roll and control distance. I can't say that holding the hands up to the head does this.

I agree with your point about making the body a smaller target by standing 'diagonal'. This flows back the underpinnings of smart boxing in that you should show your opponent the least amount of targets to hit as possible. This way you can control where he will try to punch to with greater predictability. If you give him many options he will act unpredictably; if you give him only some options you take away the bulk of his punches and leave him in a predictable state.

Anyhow thanks for the response Grand. Its obvious to me that you approach boxing in very well thought out way.

You raise good points which i never even thought of before!
I been thinkign about what you said for a few days and it does make sense! the arm does naturally want to be thrown from beneath your chin but like you said this dos leave yoru face open. the slipping and rolling thing makes sense aswell if you can perfect it i think the slipping and rolling tactic can be very hard to perfect but when done so it would be very effective. if your like me and have not perfected it then you tend to eat alot of glove
well thank YOU for the reply made me think about it a bit more

yeah you definitely would eat lots of glove. You would need to drop your left hand and use your shoulder to block the right hand. With the left hand low and the right hand at chest level you will notice that your upper body can move more freely. Your arms are not bolted to your body like a robot and you can bend at the waist to get under or away from punches with greater ease. Because your gloves are not around your face they don't obstruct your vision in any way. This kind of defense depends less on taking the punches on the arms and gloves and more on seeing them coming and slipping just enough to avoid it entirely. Something will see Floyd Mayweather do tonight against De la Hoya.

Through things like shadow boxing you can get a feel of this style with your body and in time it becomes very instinctive. It very well should be since this stance is a natural position for the body. You will notice this in your arms; they won't get heavy and tire you out because you don't have to hold them up all the time. Many people like to say this style is only for the super quick or slick but thats all bull. Like grey used to say its not some boxing magic. Up until the late 1940's it was the standard way to box.

But I wouldn't recommend this style unless you really know the in and outs of it like you say. It can be extremely effective but the slightest miscalculations can get you clipped. The trainers out there are pretty ignorant when it comes to this so you won't get much out of them trying to learn it. I say watch some tapes and good luck if you're thinking about trying it.

[Chris Nagel]

The Dempsey Roll:

I know that Dempsey loved to lean away and under from punches by moving his upper body back towards his right. It loaded up his right hand and made him extremely hard to reach. The Dempsey roll would come after. With his upperbody positioned over towards his right side (which by the way he stood was behind him - he stood almost sideways) he would weave low so that weight would be over his left leg. This movement slipped punches and allowed him to load up on his left hook.

The whole theme of this is to make the opponent miss whilst putting the body's weight in a position to strike. If you notice of Dempsey, he always had full leverage on every punch. You must start out in a stance similar to his to do that.

Dempsey did it in every fight. He was also hard to hit and had very underrated defense. Too bad that because he liked to press forward he gets billed as being some kind of a savage incapable of thought. He was pretty cagey in my opinion.

As for the move it doesn't limit your vision. I'm not sure how it would. And you're right that it leaves you in a position where you can't punch but only for the left hand. If you've seen any Dempsey you know that he likes to spring up from that crouch with a right hand. Dempsey hit pretty hard last I remember.


He looks pretty open but know that Dempsey's upperbody was constantly moving and he used a shoulder roll. Tunney as quoted saying that Dempsey was one of the hardest fighters to hit with his right. Kept catching air or shoulder.

[Chris Nagel]

The snag-line:

You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver.

Ah, I call that one the snag-line. Its a good move but you must watch for your opponent's left hook as he has just completed the weight shift involved in throwing his right and is thus in position to sling his left hook at you. Ha I remember Rafael Marquez getting knocked down with just that: a left hook after "snag-lining" Israel Vasquez's Right hand with his jab. Forget if it was in the first or the second fight - probably the first.

this makes the snag line a pretty dangerous strategy to employ. For both guys. A messy move.

[Chris Nagel]

Rolling with the punches:

You're supposed to roll with punches that are blocked on the arms. What happens when fighters keep their arms and gloves in tight to the body and sides of the head is that they will just sit there and absorb punches. You're never supposed to just sit there and absorb punches. By having your arms so tightly locked to your body you hinder your ability to throw punches: how can you throw punches if both your arms are busy blocking? You're not in a position to punch.

By rolling with the punch while blocking you take much of the steam off of their punch as it no longer has a flush target to transfer all of its force into cleanly. By rolling away you also put yourself into a position to punch and therefore counter. For example you block a left hook on your right arm and roll with it to your left as you block (weight now on left foot) putting you in a position to throw a left hook yourself. Think about that for a second and work it out in your head.

Today its pretty popular to just sit there and absorb punches. In the 20's or 30's you would have small 8 oz nothing gloves that did not much more than cover the fist. You wouldn't want to get hit with one of those anywhere. You also notice that fighters of these eras never held there arms up to the sides of their heads. They depended on slipping and rolling more than they did on blocking and it shows in the way that they fought.

[Chris Nagel]

Circle Left:

I'm not sure it makes much difference assuming I take my left foot off the ground, pivot to let my foot go out a bit a little as I push sideways with my right, land with my left foot in it's new position and then follow with the right. I can see if my right was pointed in to the left more it'd be hard.

Perhaps I also naturally let it pivot out without meaning to often since my coach often reprimands me for letting that happen. Circling left is not something I guess I practice often as we only have one southpaw in our gym and I don't spar him more than once a month or so.

Do you see it being a lot easier with your right foot pointing out initially rather than pivoting as you are moving?

sharla, watch fighters like bernard hopkins or floyd mayweather (2 of the best pound for pound fighters in recent memory i should add) and notice how they effortessly can circle left. notice that they arent standig facing foward as your coach instructs. by standing so squared up you movement gets comprimised. If you get the chance to, try and ask him why a fighter like bernard hopkins (who essentially stands sideways) is such an incredible boxer and why he thinks his method of boxing is superior to bernard's. I hope i'm not stirring up trouble by saying this but its best that you gets all that information, and you wont get it by blindly following everything your trainer says. trainers tend to be pretty egotistical when it comes to thing like teching boxing (if you even hint at the possibility that they might be wrong they get all huffy and take it as an insult to their worth as a teacher)

[Chris Nagel]

Counterpunching:

Here is a very very simple way to shorten the arms of an opponent with long arms and a busy jab; the funny thing is that it is THE natural counter in boxing and very difficult for him to counter.
Here is the premise: the motion you make to slip his jab so that it passes over your right shoulder- slipping it to the "inside" position- is the exact same motion as you make to throw a straight hand. He jabs, you step slightly forward and left with your left foot shifting the wt to your left leg, etc...Your step far enough to drop your body low enough so that you are able to drive a straight to his heart; in the early days of boxing this was a legitimate ko punch and still would be were the average "modern" fighter schooled well enough to throw it. Throw this punch and come back with a left uppercut or weave outside with a hook to the body or chin. However you do it this punch will discourage his jab in short order.

hey grey, ive been thikning more and more recently that getting your opponent to commit to his jab - that is, so he really steps in with it - should be the main starting point for the direction of the fight to unfold from. so many nice counterpunches to use should this be established. you would have to stand so that you lean a bit back and to the right (the traditional stance) though as this is the extra distance that they try to compensate for.

[Chris Nagel]

Thinking:

in boxing there are only so many possible outcomes to every action preformed in the ring. it is a closed system with rules that never change. there are a limited amount of punches that can be thrown and a limited amount of reactions that the opponent can respond back with. when i jab there are only so many things that my opponent can do in response. when i hook there are only so many things he can do in response. this makes him predictable. i can position him and set up him because i know everything he can do to me and by thinking several steps in front of him i can never be suprised. to demonstrate this thought process indicative of all strategic greats in boxing and beyond i will post an excerpt of�* grandmaster alexander kotov's thought process during the 1939 ussr championship

"What do I do here? His king is badly placed, but I still have to exploit that. I have the d- and f-files, a strong knight at d4. Must hurry before he can slip away with the king to safety at b8. His last move was rook to e4 attacking the knight. Defend it by 25.Qf2? He'll go Rd8. No, then I go 26.Qf6+ winning. So he'll go Qg5 or Qe5 centralizing, and then what do I have?

Wait a minute. What about 25.Nf5+? He has no choice, takes and I go Rxf5. Then he can't take rook--mate on d6 by the queen. But he doesn't have to take. What do I have after Qc6 or Qc7? A piece gone. What about 25.Rf5 instead? Well we are playing for mate, so a rook down wouldn't matter if it's sound.

If his queen moves then Qg5+ with a powerful attack. Nor can he meet the rook sac by e5, since we go Qg5+ Kf8, Ne6+. So he has to take the rook and I take on f5 with knight, check. Then his king is drawn forward. But what if he doesn't take? Say Qd6; but then I win the queen by Rxf7+ Bxf7, Nf5+.

So he definitely has to take, and then I must have something. An interesting position! So, 25. Rf5 exf5 26.Nxf5+ Kf6 (26...Ke6 makes no difference) 27.Rd6+. Two lines. Takes the knight or rook blocks. If 27...Re6 the win is easy: 28.Qg7+ Kxf5 29.Bc2+ and now 29…Kf4 20.Qg3 mate, or 29…Re4 Qf6+ Kg4 31.Bd1+ and mate next move.

So there remains 27. Kxf5. Then what did I see?�* Oh yes! 28.Qf3+ Rf4 (28…Kg5 and white wins simply, 29.Qf6+ Kh5 30.Bd1+ Rg4 31.Qh6 mate) 29.Qh5+ Ke4 30.Bc2+ Ke3. Can he really get away safe from there? No, there's 31 Rd3+ and wherever he goes 32. Rd2+ and mate by 33.Qe2. It's all there. Just check once more. How do I stand on the clock? Ten minutes left. I'll check again. After all it's a forced win, so time trouble won't matter too much."

this is called a tree of analysis. essentially this is the process of "if i do this, he does that, when he does that, i do this, then he will do that, so i will do this" one cannot call himself a good boxer until he understands this process at least partially. it is actually simpler than you may think, you just must memorize every punch exchange in boxing, one for orthodox fighting and one for southpaw. there are not many and even less when fighting a southpaw if you take the time to analyze it all. my advice is learn your boxing. how can you ever be good if you never total understanding of the things happening around you, finding yourself confused and incapable when met with things you dont know how to deal with?

I read once that good boxers play checkers, great ones play chess...
You are new to this, ive it time but never let your brain be inactive. Early on all those hands flying around can be a bit unsettling, as every time you get set to do something a glove bounces off your head and when you become aware of an opening it is gone before you can punch at it. When you get a lull you fire punches anywhere, not caring if they land but glad to have a chance to fire back. You can stay out of range and avoid his punches but you can't hit him either, and to go inside means getting hit, etc...
Practice is where it all begins and ends, doing the same basic moves over and over until they are ingrained in your muscle memory, and at the same time you are training your mind. Start with shadow boxing, in front of a mirror. Imagine a real opponent throwing real punches, avoid them and counter them and do it full on like in the ring, with movement, bobbing weaving, punches slips and parries. You are not only able to see and correct your technical mistakes but you are teaching your boxing brain to evaluate and react to situations: " I want to stay outsidwe on his guy, use my jab, look to walk him into a right. He's looking to rop his right over my jab, if he can, burt he's really wanting to get close and work his left hook." Now you have an objective, an idea of traps along the way, and your opponent's goal and now you need to set to set taps for him, and so on.
This carries over o your bag work. If you just stand there and punch the heavy bag that's how you'll fight. You have to practice moving in and out, footwork, positioning yourself to land a paticular punch or combination, all the whil being aware of his intent o hit you. So you begin be slipping his jab, stepping in with a right under the heart, weave out wit a hook to the belly and straighten up to land a right hook over his left shoulder, and then you can step safley out of range or throw a hook, etc... The key thing is to always have a scenario in mind and to do it like its real.
Sparring as often as is possible is the most vital thing; spar daily, withany and everyone, just spar. At first you'll be dismayed at your inability to land a decent punch and at how often you get hit, but keep parring especially with people better tan you as you can learn by watching and cetainly by being on the defensiv for lengths of time against somebody that can throw combinations. Pretty soon you'll realize that half the hands in the air have nothing to do with you and can be ignored, and you won't have to think "catch this jab or parry it?", "block his hook or duck under?" because it will be second nature to you. It is now that you begin working on landing your punches, as you have no fear of moving into punching range as you can avoid or deflect or block the majority of punches. All the hours of envisioning couterpunches will pay off; you'll have trained your body to parry to the outside of the jab while hooking to the chin, for example.
Now you can really begin to strategize in the ring; hours in the mirror have taught you that a feint this way makes you look open for a right, so you can anticipate his reaction. Your body will be instinctively protecting itself and taking counterpunching opportunities, so your mind is free to think and to analyze.

For all my longwindedness, its just time and practice and training your mind like you train your body.

i also think its important to dehumanize (that even a word?) boxing. how else can you get over the harsh reality inside the ring? when i fight, i fight as if i am fighting not an opponent, but boxing itself. as if i were trying to beat my best score. not making mistakes, setting up your shots, it isnt about getting the best over someone to prove how tough you are, playing the game is an end in itself.