Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

[Chris Nagel]

Thinking:

in boxing there are only so many possible outcomes to every action preformed in the ring. it is a closed system with rules that never change. there are a limited amount of punches that can be thrown and a limited amount of reactions that the opponent can respond back with. when i jab there are only so many things that my opponent can do in response. when i hook there are only so many things he can do in response. this makes him predictable. i can position him and set up him because i know everything he can do to me and by thinking several steps in front of him i can never be suprised. to demonstrate this thought process indicative of all strategic greats in boxing and beyond i will post an excerpt of�* grandmaster alexander kotov's thought process during the 1939 ussr championship

"What do I do here? His king is badly placed, but I still have to exploit that. I have the d- and f-files, a strong knight at d4. Must hurry before he can slip away with the king to safety at b8. His last move was rook to e4 attacking the knight. Defend it by 25.Qf2? He'll go Rd8. No, then I go 26.Qf6+ winning. So he'll go Qg5 or Qe5 centralizing, and then what do I have?

Wait a minute. What about 25.Nf5+? He has no choice, takes and I go Rxf5. Then he can't take rook--mate on d6 by the queen. But he doesn't have to take. What do I have after Qc6 or Qc7? A piece gone. What about 25.Rf5 instead? Well we are playing for mate, so a rook down wouldn't matter if it's sound.

If his queen moves then Qg5+ with a powerful attack. Nor can he meet the rook sac by e5, since we go Qg5+ Kf8, Ne6+. So he has to take the rook and I take on f5 with knight, check. Then his king is drawn forward. But what if he doesn't take? Say Qd6; but then I win the queen by Rxf7+ Bxf7, Nf5+.

So he definitely has to take, and then I must have something. An interesting position! So, 25. Rf5 exf5 26.Nxf5+ Kf6 (26...Ke6 makes no difference) 27.Rd6+. Two lines. Takes the knight or rook blocks. If 27...Re6 the win is easy: 28.Qg7+ Kxf5 29.Bc2+ and now 29…Kf4 20.Qg3 mate, or 29…Re4 Qf6+ Kg4 31.Bd1+ and mate next move.

So there remains 27. Kxf5. Then what did I see?�* Oh yes! 28.Qf3+ Rf4 (28…Kg5 and white wins simply, 29.Qf6+ Kh5 30.Bd1+ Rg4 31.Qh6 mate) 29.Qh5+ Ke4 30.Bc2+ Ke3. Can he really get away safe from there? No, there's 31 Rd3+ and wherever he goes 32. Rd2+ and mate by 33.Qe2. It's all there. Just check once more. How do I stand on the clock? Ten minutes left. I'll check again. After all it's a forced win, so time trouble won't matter too much."

this is called a tree of analysis. essentially this is the process of "if i do this, he does that, when he does that, i do this, then he will do that, so i will do this" one cannot call himself a good boxer until he understands this process at least partially. it is actually simpler than you may think, you just must memorize every punch exchange in boxing, one for orthodox fighting and one for southpaw. there are not many and even less when fighting a southpaw if you take the time to analyze it all. my advice is learn your boxing. how can you ever be good if you never total understanding of the things happening around you, finding yourself confused and incapable when met with things you dont know how to deal with?

I read once that good boxers play checkers, great ones play chess...
You are new to this, ive it time but never let your brain be inactive. Early on all those hands flying around can be a bit unsettling, as every time you get set to do something a glove bounces off your head and when you become aware of an opening it is gone before you can punch at it. When you get a lull you fire punches anywhere, not caring if they land but glad to have a chance to fire back. You can stay out of range and avoid his punches but you can't hit him either, and to go inside means getting hit, etc...
Practice is where it all begins and ends, doing the same basic moves over and over until they are ingrained in your muscle memory, and at the same time you are training your mind. Start with shadow boxing, in front of a mirror. Imagine a real opponent throwing real punches, avoid them and counter them and do it full on like in the ring, with movement, bobbing weaving, punches slips and parries. You are not only able to see and correct your technical mistakes but you are teaching your boxing brain to evaluate and react to situations: " I want to stay outsidwe on his guy, use my jab, look to walk him into a right. He's looking to rop his right over my jab, if he can, burt he's really wanting to get close and work his left hook." Now you have an objective, an idea of traps along the way, and your opponent's goal and now you need to set to set taps for him, and so on.
This carries over o your bag work. If you just stand there and punch the heavy bag that's how you'll fight. You have to practice moving in and out, footwork, positioning yourself to land a paticular punch or combination, all the whil being aware of his intent o hit you. So you begin be slipping his jab, stepping in with a right under the heart, weave out wit a hook to the belly and straighten up to land a right hook over his left shoulder, and then you can step safley out of range or throw a hook, etc... The key thing is to always have a scenario in mind and to do it like its real.
Sparring as often as is possible is the most vital thing; spar daily, withany and everyone, just spar. At first you'll be dismayed at your inability to land a decent punch and at how often you get hit, but keep parring especially with people better tan you as you can learn by watching and cetainly by being on the defensiv for lengths of time against somebody that can throw combinations. Pretty soon you'll realize that half the hands in the air have nothing to do with you and can be ignored, and you won't have to think "catch this jab or parry it?", "block his hook or duck under?" because it will be second nature to you. It is now that you begin working on landing your punches, as you have no fear of moving into punching range as you can avoid or deflect or block the majority of punches. All the hours of envisioning couterpunches will pay off; you'll have trained your body to parry to the outside of the jab while hooking to the chin, for example.
Now you can really begin to strategize in the ring; hours in the mirror have taught you that a feint this way makes you look open for a right, so you can anticipate his reaction. Your body will be instinctively protecting itself and taking counterpunching opportunities, so your mind is free to think and to analyze.

For all my longwindedness, its just time and practice and training your mind like you train your body.

i also think its important to dehumanize (that even a word?) boxing. how else can you get over the harsh reality inside the ring? when i fight, i fight as if i am fighting not an opponent, but boxing itself. as if i were trying to beat my best score. not making mistakes, setting up your shots, it isnt about getting the best over someone to prove how tough you are, playing the game is an end in itself.

[Chris Nagel]

Tom's on defense:

i would tend to stand pretty slanted so that i was just but sideways. right hand at the chest level to parry and to draw jabs, left hand low to draw right hands. he either leads on me so i can counter, or i jab him and try to get him to counter. either way im trying to make him throw punches - and more to the point, trying to make him throw specific punches. this is typically how it goes but it gets more complicated in practice. its tricky trying to keep a guy under your thumb because you cant read minds. if you could you would be unbeatable i guess.

the main thing with defense is that you cannot consider it without also considering other variables. like say, what counterpunch corresponds, what is he trying to set up off of this, what can i set up from this later etc. nothing in boxing is isolated - they all interweave with each other to make up the whole.

[Chris Nagel]

The southpaw jab vs the orthodox jab:

The southpaw jab vs the orthodox jab is a very large part of fighting between southpaw/orthodox but I think ultimately southpaw/orthodox is won and lost on the Southpaw left straight and the Orthodox straight right. By that I mean everything revolves around the control of this. Either in the form of stopping/avoiding it or setting up counters off of it. Its kind of at the center of southpaw/orthodox and I think the fight is won and lost on how well a fighter handles it.

For example the natural counter for the southpaw jab is the straight right and vice versa either to the body or head (interestingly the southpaw is the one at a disadvantage because his liver is in front of his body, underneath his right arm, and therefore underneath his jab). But anyway this counter is only viable if your opponent is committing enough into his jab to allow you to counter it. So one part of the "jab war" between orthodox and southpaw is in seeing who can counter who's jab with this punch. If a fighter, in trying to win the jab war, commits too heavily into his jab, he puts himself in danger of walking face first into this counter.

Also the two other most effective counters when fighting with a southpaw (speaking as an orthodox fighter) is the right uppercut after slipping under their straight left and the left hook after blocking the straight left on your right arm. These are deadly counters.

Anyway my point is that in southpaw/orthodox everything ultimately comes back to how the left or straight right is handled and that plans should be developed around how to land them and how counter them. The jab is ultimately a means to that end.

[Chris Nagel]

Advice:

Benny Leonard and Henry Armstrong were both KO'd in their first fights; Billy Conn was 13-6-1 after 20. They all ended up doing pretty well, as did Monzon, and Arguello (2-2, KO'd in debut), because they were learning how to fight. Boxing is a whole bunch more than wading in throwing haymakers and splattering opponents; now and again they'd rather not get splattered and have some ideas about you. Get yourself into the best condition you can be in (i don't mean Mr Universe condition but go ten hard fast rounds and want more condition.) because this you can control; make sure your mind knows that you will not get tired. Since you are staying out of the weight room and in the gym, you'll have lots of tim to work over and over again on your defensive moves and your punches; you are developing 'large muscle memory' so that your body reacts seemingly on its own. When you spar take a moment to analyze what is going on in the ring; what is he trying to do to you and what will you do about it? Suppose that as you move about jabbing a bit, feinting more, that it becomes clear that he wants to land the left hook; well that gives you two (at least) choices, to beat the hook with a short right hand or to get under the hook and hook him to the body.... Do you see my point? Don't be in a hurry to punch for its own sake; drive that fear of getting tired out with the knowledge of your condition, and minimize the times you get hit. Condition your body to fight, then keep your brain busy plotting strategy.

[Chris Nagel]

Using the jab:

Not sure exactly what you mean... See, you may throw a jab not so much to land it but to see how he plans on avoiding it. If you jab with a bit of shoulder and hip in it, while pushing off the back foot its more a straight left hand. Are you looking to draw a counter right, or doubling up to discourage one? Jabbing your way in or backing him up with a jab? Using it to take the initiative or to counter and disrupt? The rising jab of Burley, Moore and others is a very damaging counter against a guy who really steps with his jab. Never jab down or across your body. You don't need to land every one, and even if the jab misses throw the right hand/hook, or whatever anyway. Sometimes not jabbing is best- Arguello v Mancini comes to mind. Mancini hoped to slip the jab get in hit the body get out but Alexis didn't jab much or committ much when he did forcing Ray to advance and retreat under fire. Watch Ricardo Lopez, Toney, all the pros. Try to think what they are thinking as you watch what they do and don't do

[Chris Nagel]

Training tips:

Shadow boxing is entirely about developing technique and the mental aspects of the game. The mirror lets you see and correct your flaws. Then get in the ring and fight three rounds against an imaginary opponent and really work. ALL of the old-time trainers said that, if you could only do one exercise, shadow-box.

You know, so many guys train so much that they neglect the most important part of the body: the brain. I know what you are talking about- guys that hit the bag, do the same combination over and over again, then stand and wait after they punch. They don't realize that you build habits that way. You always have to envision an opponent throwing punches back at you.

I saw this guy in Phoenix back in 04 that really caught my attention. He probably weighed 112 or 115 and he was kind of tall, working the heavy bag. He was watching himself real close in the mirror and working on a series of moves. He'd do them one at a time dissecting them until he was satisfied. Then he spent a couple rounds stringing these moves together, with head feints to get in, stepping around the bag, the whole shot. He really knew how to get the most out of a bag.

Well, you can't be thinking that you'll land all three and he'll stand there and take it Just for fun let's run through a couple of scenarios you might work through.

You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver. To get out, get your right glove behind his left elbow and turn him to your left while you step out to your right.

Or, you jab then feint the jab to draw his jab. When he jabs you slip inside it with a short straight right to the heart, then weave to the outside while hooking his body with your left. From the outside you straighten and cross your right to his head and follow with a left hook.

See the idea? You always work your way in and out, always imagining a response from a guy trying to win. Don't just stand there and punch.

We use the double end bag to get a similar mental excercise,every time you hit it its moving,now if you force yourself to move and circle it...........

That's a good way to use the double end bag. Control its movement with your movement and jab and always hit it while its coming towards you.

[Chris Nagel]

The low left hand:

Many- I would venture to say most- of boxing's great defensive fighters fought with a low left hand and in terms of "proper" technical boxing using the shoulder to defend against the right hand is the superior technique as it provides better counter-punchingopportunities and it leaves both hands free to counter. Also there is less damage done tan there is when putting one's left glove against one's head and blocking the right. The idea is to avoid or to deflect as much impact as is possible.
If you watch tpe of Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Walcott, Charles, even James Toney they jab from the hip and it is anything but a light flicking punch. Eddie Futch was discussing the great Holman Williams in an interview and made reference to his rising jab, which hedescribed as a sort of "back handed uppercut." Tape of the fighters that utilized this punch will show that while the left was low they carried their chins well behind the left houlder, fought out of a semi-crouch and had their left hip and shoulder so far forward- towards their opponent- as to be almost sideways.
This makes one very hard to hit with right hands, and makes an opponent walk around and into your right hand if he tries to land his hook. The 'rising jab' comes into play as the opponent jabs; either slip or parry so that his jab goes over your left shoulder, stepping in with the left foot by slightly pushing off the right. The left glove, the left arm straight, comes straight u7p from the hip, timed to meet the foe's cin as he steps in behind the jab you made him miss. This is a very jolting blow, and over time causes considerable damage.
I would also argue that , if done in the manner described above it makes one less vulnerable to right hands, due to the stance and the crouch. In fact it lends itself to drawing and countering the right with a return right to head or body.