Shoulder Rolling

[wesrman]

Excellent post BTW Chris, as usual.

[Chris Nagel]

this stance and positioning of the hands invite a wide array of attacks from your opponent. an overright hand, looping hooks, and long and swing uppers. you cant possibly defend yourself well using this.

That's the beauty of it. It invites whoever goes up against it to throw everything including the kitchen sink. Although he looks open in everyway open, in reality he's isn't. I know that this is hard to believe being that today's accepted stance is the hands up on the cheeks (or higher), arms bolted tight to the body, body hunched over, chin tucked and standing square to your opponent. Now what this sadly leads to is a perpetual state of blocking when your hands could be used much more proactively, say jabbing, feinting, capitalizing on opportunities as well as creating them. This is harder to do when your arms are commited to blocking, you can see this is a problem with Jeff Lacey and even more recently Joshua Clottey.

The other stance that I mentioned gives so much more options, while allowing a fighter to practically defend punches with impunity, while limiting/affecting the actions and options that your opponent. Thomas Tabin makes a lot of good points about this stance:

There are tons of stances out there. I am of the opinion that there is only one correct stance and that all other stances are wrong. But this is my line of thinking and I don't expect to turn anybody over. Its up to you. The usual stance that gets pinned as the standard (at least these days) is the standing squared up with your gloves up to your temples. At first glance this stance seems perfect. Your head is well covered up as is the body. You're like some walking fortress it seems. So people take to it thinking they have all the bases covered and they are good to go. Has some limitations though. For one, standing like that you sort of hinder yourself. Your gloves don't need to be tight to the face as though you were blocking. They only need to be there when you actually are blocking! Why hold them up as though to block when the need to block is not present? This is wasteful and it commits your hands to doing a job where they otherwise could (and to my mind, should) be doing something more effective. Like throwing a crisp rising jab. All the great jabs of the sport from Loughran to Tunney to Moore and Burley were rising jabs -- and you cant throw a rising jab if your left hand is up at your head. The jab is so cirtical in my opinion because it lets you control distance and allows you to set up your punches. Standing squared up also affects how well you can jab. If you jab from a squared up stance you jab short. If you jab from a squared up stance and turn the body so as to get more length to your jab you end up tipping off your jab aswell as taking longer to get the punch off as more movements are being involved. try it for yourself and see. If you jab from an almost sideways stance you get much more length on your jab, throw it from the hip so that it will be a hard rising jab, and you tip it off less because the movement is less involved. it also ensures [standing nearly sideways] that your hip and shoulder are in front of your head. This allows for you to use the shoulder roll. Something that would be impossible with your hands to your ears and squared up. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. so that you can lean just away or under from jabs left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance -- you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches. Watch James Toney you will see this.

Ultimately, standing nearly sideways with the lead hand low allows much more. It is very subtle in this way ad at first glance the common eye will not see this. Every man has his own unique ways about his stance but to my mind the only correct stance looks very much like this:




That is Tommy Loughran. I assure you, if Tommy did it, there was good reason behind it. He was one of the most calculating and cunning fighters to live and would set you up and knock you dead no lie. Anyway, I think this stance is the right one. All the true greats in the history of the sport fought out of a similar stance From Carpentier to Floyd Mayweather believe it or not.

I leave it up to you.

well, when you mean shoulder rolling to close the gap for your attacks (usually uppers and short hooks), this position makes sense. see joe louis and jack dempsey.

Normally you don't have to close the gap in order for the shoulder roll to work. To do it effectively you do however have to make your opponent commit to their right hand, it's even better if they have to step in or reach to try to hit you. What Thomas pointed out to me is that the right is a natural counter for a right (likewise how a left hook is also naturally countered by a left hook). As you roll the punch to the inside you're right hand is loaded while you have the added bonus of hitting them while they're coming forward. Anyways with a little adjustment this stance can be used at any range. Now back in the day this stance was how everyone would stand, from Benny Leonard, to Burley, any many of the great old time fighters, and you'll see much of the effective elements being used being used by more recent fighters, Mike McCallum, James Toney, Floyd Mayweather to name a few. You can't use the shoulder roll, or draw a particular counter if you're standing arms in and square.

[quote=Tito BHB;579670]
The shoulder roll is excellent.. not everyone can use it.. but whatever i get working for me then i take that and run with it.. see about the rest as i continue.. instead of getting every inch of the specific style right.. [quote/]
Yeah, not everyone can use it, and there are reasons for this. Ask yourself how come fighters like James Toney, Mayweather, and many Eddie Futch fighters could do the shoulder roll and others coundn't. There's a simple solution, they were taught. Now it was easier in Mayweather's case because he was brought up in it from the get go, James Toney however got knocked on his butt at first, but he persevered and got it down. Back in the day it used to be universal, it was defense 101 taught in boxing gyms and manuals all over. Like other defensive techniques it had to practiced, but by no means was it a magical maneuver only to be used by the few gifted. Although with the stance that is taught in many places today it makes the shoulder roll virtually impossible to pull off.

but much like any defensive style just because it is more famous doesnt make it the best.. because when it comes down to it.. its head movement.. and defense.. its like these guys that were good with defensive boxing always boxed like punch, defense, punch again, always defense..
soon as you punch move your head again..

There'll always be the "it" fighter of each generation that everyone will want to emulate (e.g. Marciano, Ali, Tyson, PBF, etc.). When it comes down to it, don't think on terms of "style", that will cause you to be rigid and closed minded. Instead always do things that works best for you, but don't be afraid to make adjustments and try new things in order to improve as a fighter. Read what Jack Sharkey had to say about this:

"The reason you learn, it isn’t too much from the trainers, it’s from your own eyesight that you notice these fighters, standing around in the gym while you are waiting to go in to box or you are jumping rope or punching the bag, you stop while he’s boxing, you pick up little pointers and these things you try, and this is what, if you go any brains in your head at all, this is what makes fighters improve. And you get so that it’s entirely different and easier than your own style, so this is how a good fighter becomes a great fighter, it’s the fighter himself that can improve and try something."

Truer words were never spoken.

What happens in sparring with me some times if i have slipped in a certain manner etc.. it leaves you in positions with your shoulders more squared off.. so the range for your next shot is much closer.. then usually follow by a jab to create my distance again..

Like Andre says, there's a time for everything and it's good that you recognize the advatages of squaring up your shoulders. What Archie Moore would do and even Shane Mosely at times would be slip to the inside of their opponent's jab, deal with their opponents right arm/hand while hitting with their free hand. Mosely liked getting off combinations on the inside and this was one of the ways he did it.

[Chris Nagel]

If your left hand is held lower like in the picture, then to your opponent it'll look like a big invitation for right hands. That's good for you because there's a number of ways you can defend against it, as well as following up with a counter. For one you can slip it making it travel on the outside of your shoulder, or you can roll/turn your body as to deflecting their punch to the right of your left shoulder, keeping your chin tucked into your shoulder while shifting your weight on to your right leg. This is a nifty move because your at the same time you're loading up your right hand. Countering now with your right hand is even perfect because you can thow it with all power, and your opponent's momentum from his missed right means he's going to be in a head on collision with your fist. You can even throw a right uppercut off this counter too towards their chin or solar-plexus.

This paragraph is basically an example of what Floyd does. Isnt it??

This isn't alluding to Floyd, but yeah, this is what Floyd does, and does well. There's many other examples to, to drop a few more names onto the one's that I've mentioned, take a look at George Benton, and then go back and look at McCallum and Toney and the great old timers putting it in action.

yes.. floyd always turns his left shoulder in, almost turning sideways, and counters with the right.. or a left hook.. or keeps rolling..

anyone who can shoulder roll like toney or floyd is extremely gifted as far as i'm concerned.. i've had a hard time practicing it even.

The thing about this is it should almost be a reaction to an opponent's commited right, rather than something that follows a tip off as in other counters. Floyd has it down to a conditioned reflex towards right hands. It does require practice. It can be done-- assuming you have everything else in order to begin with.

[Trainer Monkey]

There is no beauty to it Chris,its not only off balance the jab wont have an ounce of power,and every shot from the left will be telegraphed
There's a reason nobody fights from that stance anymore

[Scrap]

Look at his Head and where it is, its perfect to make the rest of the body move without moving itself. Perfect Oral Stability

[canary]

this stance and positioning of the hands invite a wide array of attacks from your opponent. an overright hand, looping hooks, and long and swing uppers. you cant possibly defend yourself well using this.

That's the beauty of it. It invites whoever goes up against it to throw everything including the kitchen sink. Although he looks open in everyway open, in reality he's isn't. I know that this is hard to believe being that today's accepted stance is the hands up on the cheeks (or higher), arms bolted tight to the body, body hunched over, chin tucked and standing square to your opponent. Now what this sadly leads to is a perpetual state of blocking when your hands could be used much more proactively, say jabbing, feinting, capitalizing on opportunities as well as creating them. This is harder to do when your arms are commited to blocking, you can see this is a problem with Jeff Lacey and even more recently Joshua Clottey.

inviting attacks from any conceivable angle is not really a good idea in boxing, especially if youre up against a well-rounded fighter who can deliver punches on almost all directions, throw them in volume, and operate with superior footworks.

(see barrera - hamed) damn! im still figuring out how to embed youtube vids.

hamed has his left hand low all through-out the fight. reason? his gameplan was obviously to lure barrera to come inside, trade punches with him and force (or wait) barrera to commit a mistake along the way. but it never happened. what came from barrera were looping right hooks that rarely (or never?) missed the target. it costed him the fight.

we all know what kind of a fighter hamed was. hes capable of throwing big punches from odd angles and he can end a fight with just a punch. youre idea of shoulder rolling off that loughran stance fits perfectly to hameds style. but against somebody who moves in and out pretty well and throws volumes of strong punches from any angles like barrera, it was a bad idea. i dont think using a very open stance is a good way to start your rolling. you cant possibly trap a Level A opponent with your head and body all open.

now, a great trap and roll is what thomas hearns has shown the world of boxing. left hands low and swinging back and forth and left and right (for quick hard jabs he could throw in different angles) and a killer right hand up to cover the chin/head wc was always ready to deliver the kill. he always held his left hand low to invite an opponent to come inside. and once they were in his range, theyre dead. and if they managed to survive the killer right and succesfully closed the gap, hearns would just roll away from their range. hearns always got away with that stance precisely because his body and head from the right side were all well covered and his opponents had only one side/angle to exploit with (the left side with the left hand low). was this effective against fighters of all styles? the answer was the two leonard fights and the duran fight.

its good to leave certain parts of your body/head open as a trap, but to leave your body all open is not really a good idea. its not even a trap to begin with.

now, lets look at the stance of joe louis. similar to that lougran stance save for the hands that are positioned relatively higher. his right hand up to cover the chin, and his left hand a little low to block jabs, body shots and uppers. louis was a master of oppense-oriented shoulder roll. the positioning of the feet and the hands were perfectly designed to economize movements, exploit the rooms, keep opponents within striking range, prevent them from using lateral movements to box him out and most of all, allow him to close the gap for his killer compact hooks and uppers.

Normally you don't have to close the gap in order for the shoulder roll to work. To do it effectively you do however have to make your opponent commit to their right hand, it's even better if they have to step in or reach to try to hit you. What Thomas pointed out to me is that the right is a natural counter for a right (likewise how a left hook is also naturally countered by a left hook). As you roll the punch to the inside you're right hand is loaded while you have the added bonus of hitting them while they're coming forward.

shoulder roll comes in two. one was going along with the punch to lessen its impact or to avoid getting hit by that punch, the other was working your way besides and under the punches and jabs while closing the gap for your offensives. tyson and dempsey were masters of this. joe frazier and rocky marciano were honorable mentions. moving in while ducking punches and throwing killer uppers and hooks when the gap is closed. again, you cant possible pull-off the offense-oriented shoulder roll with youre body and head wide open.

[Chris Nagel]

There is no beauty to it Chris,its not only off balance the jab wont have an ounce of power,and every shot from the left will be telegraphed
There's a reason nobody fights from that stance anymore

His balance is fine, and with a slight twist of his hips shoulder he'd hit you a hard jab too. A lot of fighters make the mistake of putting their weight on their front leg (or bad posture to begin with) when trying to reach, this often puts them off balance and susceptable to counters. I assure you, he was not hindered in anyway besides the fact that he had bad hands.

Yeah, there's a reason why nobody fights in that stance anymore, it's all because no body teaches it anymore. If Charlie Burley, Benny Leonard and the like fought the way that a lot of guys fight today they would have had short and obscure careers.

Look at his Head and where it is, its perfect to make the rest of the body move without moving itself. Perfect Oral Stability

His head is out of the way, and not tucked forward and into his breast bone. He got a good view of the action, and could move with grace. With his head being back where it is, he's hard to hit with a jab.


Reply to Canary: He's not going to just stand there so you could hit him, and his defense isn't at all as flawed as you think. His left arm wasn't dangling at his side, it was in a good position to jab from, and he could bring it back to protect body if the need arose. His right hand guarded his solar-plexus, and no matter what kind of looping/left hook that you could throw at him it probably wouldn't get through unless you had a very clever set up. His narrow stance, slight crouch and lean increased distance. Add the rising jab that his lowered hands entitled, along with circling and he could control distance. Standing at a slant to his opponent leaning slightly to the right (away from the opponent's right hand) he could easily slip, and shoulder roll with impunity.

Circling right, offering non-commital jabs, while under this stance he forced his opponents to fight his fight. you're pretty much limited to throwing ineffective jabs at him, and reaching with the right hand.

shoulder roll comes in two. one was going along with the punch to lessen its impact or to avoid getting hit by that punch, the other was working your way besides and under the punches and jabs while closing the gap for your offensives. tyson and dempsey were masters of this. joe frazier and rocky marciano were honorable mentions. moving in while ducking punches and throwing killer uppers and hooks when the gap is closed. again, you cant possible pull-off the offense-oriented shoulder roll with youre body and head wide open.

You're confusing the shoulder roll with rolling with a punch. It's more than avoiding a punch as you are pushing their right hand to the side with your shoulder (kind of like a parry), you don't use it to lessen the impact of punch either. If you get hit with a right hand on your cheek and roll with it to lessen the impact, then you're rolling with the punch which is different to shoulder rolling. You can't shoulder roll while standing square, with your hands high, Loughran's stance helps draw an opponent's right hand which is essential to shoulder rolling. Make them commit to a particular punch and then good luck.

[Trainer Monkey]

Still disagree, his shoulders arent over his knees,he's out of round

[donnydarkoIRL]

Reply to Canary: He's not going to just stand there so you could hit him, and his defense isn't at all as flawed as you think. His left arm wasn't dangling at his side, it was in a good position to jab from, and he could bring it back to protect body if the need arose. His right hand guarded his solar-plexus, and no matter what kind of looping/left hook that you could throw at him it probably wouldn't get through unless you had a very clever set up. His narrow stance, slight crouch and lean increased distance. Add the rising jab that his lowered hands entitled, along with circling and he could control distance. Standing at a slant to his opponent leaning slightly to the right (away from the opponent's right hand) he could easily slip, and shoulder roll with impunity.



Just to reinforce Chris' point.

If you take an athlete to the gym, teach them the stance and defences then ask them to jab, thats where the punch will come from.
It's the most natural and comfortable position.

[Scrap]

Little story,National squad Training. One of my Boys Sparring with a good Fighter, now my Kid Boxed Hands low like Tommy and was Schooling the other Kid. The National Coach said Scrap youve got to get his Hands up, whys that was my reply. He will get Hit said the coach, I said the other guy is getting the shit Beat out of Him with His Hands up. His reply for a Head Coach was classic, Youve got a point there, and walked off. One point you do what suites you if its successfull if not get it changed. Plus if you Box with your Hands up you are waiting to get Hit usually, bad Habit

[donnydarkoIRL]

Little story,National squad Training. One of my Boys Sparring with a good Fighter, now my Kid Boxed Hands low like Tommy and was Schooling the other Kid. The National Coach said Scrap youve got to get his Hands up, whys that was my reply. He will get Hit said the coach, I said the other guy is getting the shit Beat out of Him with His Hands up. His reply for a Head Coach was classic, Youve got a point there, and walked off. One point you do what suites you if its successfull if not get it changed. Plus if you Box with your Hands up you are waiting to get Hit usually, bad Habit

Easier to throw if your hands are lower.

A clever trainer taught me that

[Trainer Monkey]

Little story,National squad Training. One of my Boys Sparring with a good Fighter, now my Kid Boxed Hands low like Tommy and was Schooling the other Kid. The National Coach said Scrap youve got to get his Hands up, whys that was my reply. He will get Hit said the coach, I said the other guy is getting the shit Beat out of Him with His Hands up. His reply for a Head Coach was classic, Youve got a point there, and walked off. One point you do what suites you if its successfull if not get it changed. Plus if you Box with your Hands up you are waiting to get Hit usually, bad Habit

There is a reason I prefer a staggered hand approach,vision and being able to block anything coming