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Re: Shoulder Rolling
That's the beauty of it.Originally Posted by canary
It invites whoever goes up against it to throw everything including the kitchen sink. Although he looks open in everyway open, in reality he's isn't. I know that this is hard to believe being that today's accepted stance is the hands up on the cheeks (or higher), arms bolted tight to the body, body hunched over, chin tucked and standing square to your opponent. Now what this sadly leads to is a perpetual state of blocking when your hands could be used much more proactively, say jabbing, feinting, capitalizing on opportunities as well as creating them. This is harder to do when your arms are commited to blocking, you can see this is a problem with Jeff Lacey and even more recently Joshua Clottey.
The other stance that I mentioned gives so much more options, while allowing a fighter to practically defend punches with impunity, while limiting/affecting the actions and options that your opponent. Thomas Tabin makes a lot of good points about this stance:
There are tons of stances out there. I am of the opinion that there is only one correct stance and that all other stances are wrong. But this is my line of thinking and I don't expect to turn anybody over. Its up to you. The usual stance that gets pinned as the standard (at least these days) is the standing squared up with your gloves up to your temples. At first glance this stance seems perfect. Your head is well covered up as is the body. You're like some walking fortress it seems. So people take to it thinking they have all the bases covered and they are good to go. Has some limitations though. For one, standing like that you sort of hinder yourself. Your gloves don't need to be tight to the face as though you were blocking. They only need to be there when you actually are blocking! Why hold them up as though to block when the need to block is not present? This is wasteful and it commits your hands to doing a job where they otherwise could (and to my mind, should) be doing something more effective. Like throwing a crisp rising jab. All the great jabs of the sport from Loughran to Tunney to Moore and Burley were rising jabs -- and you cant throw a rising jab if your left hand is up at your head. The jab is so cirtical in my opinion because it lets you control distance and allows you to set up your punches. Standing squared up also affects how well you can jab. If you jab from a squared up stance you jab short. If you jab from a squared up stance and turn the body so as to get more length to your jab you end up tipping off your jab aswell as taking longer to get the punch off as more movements are being involved. try it for yourself and see. If you jab from an almost sideways stance you get much more length on your jab, throw it from the hip so that it will be a hard rising jab, and you tip it off less because the movement is less involved. it also ensures [standing nearly sideways] that your hip and shoulder are in front of your head. This allows for you to use the shoulder roll. Something that would be impossible with your hands to your ears and squared up. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. so that you can lean just away or under from jabs left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance -- you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches. Watch James Toney you will see this.
Ultimately, standing nearly sideways with the lead hand low allows much more. It is very subtle in this way ad at first glance the common eye will not see this. Every man has his own unique ways about his stance but to my mind the only correct stance looks very much like this:
That is Tommy Loughran. I assure you, if Tommy did it, there was good reason behind it. He was one of the most calculating and cunning fighters to live and would set you up and knock you dead no lie. Anyway, I think this stance is the right one. All the true greats in the history of the sport fought out of a similar stance From Carpentier to Floyd Mayweather believe it or not.
I leave it up to you.Normally you don't have to close the gap in order for the shoulder roll to work. To do it effectively you do however have to make your opponent commit to their right hand, it's even better if they have to step in or reach to try to hit you. What Thomas pointed out to me is that the right is a natural counter for a right (likewise how a left hook is also naturally countered by a left hook). As you roll the punch to the inside you're right hand is loaded while you have the added bonus of hitting them while they're coming forward. Anyways with a little adjustment this stance can be used at any range. Now back in the day this stance was how everyone would stand, from Benny Leonard, to Burley, any many of the great old time fighters, and you'll see much of the effective elements being used being used by more recent fighters, Mike McCallum, James Toney, Floyd Mayweather to name a few. You can't use the shoulder roll, or draw a particular counter if you're standing arms in and square.
[quote=Tito BHB;579670]
The shoulder roll is excellent.. not everyone can use it.. but whatever i get working for me then i take that and run with it.. see about the rest as i continue.. instead of getting every inch of the specific style right.. [quote/]
Yeah, not everyone can use it, and there are reasons for this. Ask yourself how come fighters like James Toney, Mayweather, and many Eddie Futch fighters could do the shoulder roll and others coundn't. There's a simple solution, they were taught. Now it was easier in Mayweather's case because he was brought up in it from the get go, James Toney however got knocked on his butt at first, but he persevered and got it down. Back in the day it used to be universal, it was defense 101 taught in boxing gyms and manuals all over. Like other defensive techniques it had to practiced, but by no means was it a magical maneuver only to be used by the few gifted. Although with the stance that is taught in many places today it makes the shoulder roll virtually impossible to pull off.
There'll always be the "it" fighter of each generation that everyone will want to emulate (e.g. Marciano, Ali, Tyson, PBF, etc.). When it comes down to it, don't think on terms of "style", that will cause you to be rigid and closed minded. Instead always do things that works best for you, but don't be afraid to make adjustments and try new things in order to improve as a fighter. Read what Jack Sharkey had to say about this:
"The reason you learn, it isn’t too much from the trainers, it’s from your own eyesight that you notice these fighters, standing around in the gym while you are waiting to go in to box or you are jumping rope or punching the bag, you stop while he’s boxing, you pick up little pointers and these things you try, and this is what, if you go any brains in your head at all, this is what makes fighters improve. And you get so that it’s entirely different and easier than your own style, so this is how a good fighter becomes a great fighter, it’s the fighter himself that can improve and try something."
Truer words were never spoken.
Like Andre says, there's a time for everything and it's good that you recognize the advatages of squaring up your shoulders. What Archie Moore would do and even Shane Mosely at times would be slip to the inside of their opponent's jab, deal with their opponents right arm/hand while hitting with their free hand. Mosely liked getting off combinations on the inside and this was one of the ways he did it.
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