Shoulder Rolling

[canary]

this stance and positioning of the hands invite a wide array of attacks from your opponent. an overright hand, looping hooks, and long and swing uppers. you cant possibly defend yourself well using this.

That's the beauty of it. It invites whoever goes up against it to throw everything including the kitchen sink. Although he looks open in everyway open, in reality he's isn't. I know that this is hard to believe being that today's accepted stance is the hands up on the cheeks (or higher), arms bolted tight to the body, body hunched over, chin tucked and standing square to your opponent. Now what this sadly leads to is a perpetual state of blocking when your hands could be used much more proactively, say jabbing, feinting, capitalizing on opportunities as well as creating them. This is harder to do when your arms are commited to blocking, you can see this is a problem with Jeff Lacey and even more recently Joshua Clottey.

inviting attacks from any conceivable angle is not really a good idea in boxing, especially if youre up against a well-rounded fighter who can deliver punches on almost all directions, throw them in volume, and operate with superior footworks.

(see barrera - hamed) damn! im still figuring out how to embed youtube vids.

hamed has his left hand low all through-out the fight. reason? his gameplan was obviously to lure barrera to come inside, trade punches with him and force (or wait) barrera to commit a mistake along the way. but it never happened. what came from barrera were looping right hooks that rarely (or never?) missed the target. it costed him the fight.

we all know what kind of a fighter hamed was. hes capable of throwing big punches from odd angles and he can end a fight with just a punch. youre idea of shoulder rolling off that loughran stance fits perfectly to hameds style. but against somebody who moves in and out pretty well and throws volumes of strong punches from any angles like barrera, it was a bad idea. i dont think using a very open stance is a good way to start your rolling. you cant possibly trap a Level A opponent with your head and body all open.

now, a great trap and roll is what thomas hearns has shown the world of boxing. left hands low and swinging back and forth and left and right (for quick hard jabs he could throw in different angles) and a killer right hand up to cover the chin/head wc was always ready to deliver the kill. he always held his left hand low to invite an opponent to come inside. and once they were in his range, theyre dead. and if they managed to survive the killer right and succesfully closed the gap, hearns would just roll away from their range. hearns always got away with that stance precisely because his body and head from the right side were all well covered and his opponents had only one side/angle to exploit with (the left side with the left hand low). was this effective against fighters of all styles? the answer was the two leonard fights and the duran fight.

its good to leave certain parts of your body/head open as a trap, but to leave your body all open is not really a good idea. its not even a trap to begin with.

now, lets look at the stance of joe louis. similar to that lougran stance save for the hands that are positioned relatively higher. his right hand up to cover the chin, and his left hand a little low to block jabs, body shots and uppers. louis was a master of oppense-oriented shoulder roll. the positioning of the feet and the hands were perfectly designed to economize movements, exploit the rooms, keep opponents within striking range, prevent them from using lateral movements to box him out and most of all, allow him to close the gap for his killer compact hooks and uppers.

Normally you don't have to close the gap in order for the shoulder roll to work. To do it effectively you do however have to make your opponent commit to their right hand, it's even better if they have to step in or reach to try to hit you. What Thomas pointed out to me is that the right is a natural counter for a right (likewise how a left hook is also naturally countered by a left hook). As you roll the punch to the inside you're right hand is loaded while you have the added bonus of hitting them while they're coming forward.

shoulder roll comes in two. one was going along with the punch to lessen its impact or to avoid getting hit by that punch, the other was working your way besides and under the punches and jabs while closing the gap for your offensives. tyson and dempsey were masters of this. joe frazier and rocky marciano were honorable mentions. moving in while ducking punches and throwing killer uppers and hooks when the gap is closed. again, you cant possible pull-off the offense-oriented shoulder roll with youre body and head wide open.

[Chris Nagel]

There is no beauty to it Chris,its not only off balance the jab wont have an ounce of power,and every shot from the left will be telegraphed
There's a reason nobody fights from that stance anymore

His balance is fine, and with a slight twist of his hips shoulder he'd hit you a hard jab too. A lot of fighters make the mistake of putting their weight on their front leg (or bad posture to begin with) when trying to reach, this often puts them off balance and susceptable to counters. I assure you, he was not hindered in anyway besides the fact that he had bad hands.

Yeah, there's a reason why nobody fights in that stance anymore, it's all because no body teaches it anymore. If Charlie Burley, Benny Leonard and the like fought the way that a lot of guys fight today they would have had short and obscure careers.

Look at his Head and where it is, its perfect to make the rest of the body move without moving itself. Perfect Oral Stability

His head is out of the way, and not tucked forward and into his breast bone. He got a good view of the action, and could move with grace. With his head being back where it is, he's hard to hit with a jab.


Reply to Canary: He's not going to just stand there so you could hit him, and his defense isn't at all as flawed as you think. His left arm wasn't dangling at his side, it was in a good position to jab from, and he could bring it back to protect body if the need arose. His right hand guarded his solar-plexus, and no matter what kind of looping/left hook that you could throw at him it probably wouldn't get through unless you had a very clever set up. His narrow stance, slight crouch and lean increased distance. Add the rising jab that his lowered hands entitled, along with circling and he could control distance. Standing at a slant to his opponent leaning slightly to the right (away from the opponent's right hand) he could easily slip, and shoulder roll with impunity.

Circling right, offering non-commital jabs, while under this stance he forced his opponents to fight his fight. you're pretty much limited to throwing ineffective jabs at him, and reaching with the right hand.

shoulder roll comes in two. one was going along with the punch to lessen its impact or to avoid getting hit by that punch, the other was working your way besides and under the punches and jabs while closing the gap for your offensives. tyson and dempsey were masters of this. joe frazier and rocky marciano were honorable mentions. moving in while ducking punches and throwing killer uppers and hooks when the gap is closed. again, you cant possible pull-off the offense-oriented shoulder roll with youre body and head wide open.

You're confusing the shoulder roll with rolling with a punch. It's more than avoiding a punch as you are pushing their right hand to the side with your shoulder (kind of like a parry), you don't use it to lessen the impact of punch either. If you get hit with a right hand on your cheek and roll with it to lessen the impact, then you're rolling with the punch which is different to shoulder rolling. You can't shoulder roll while standing square, with your hands high, Loughran's stance helps draw an opponent's right hand which is essential to shoulder rolling. Make them commit to a particular punch and then good luck.

[Trainer Monkey]

Still disagree, his shoulders arent over his knees,he's out of round

[donnydarkoIRL]

Reply to Canary: He's not going to just stand there so you could hit him, and his defense isn't at all as flawed as you think. His left arm wasn't dangling at his side, it was in a good position to jab from, and he could bring it back to protect body if the need arose. His right hand guarded his solar-plexus, and no matter what kind of looping/left hook that you could throw at him it probably wouldn't get through unless you had a very clever set up. His narrow stance, slight crouch and lean increased distance. Add the rising jab that his lowered hands entitled, along with circling and he could control distance. Standing at a slant to his opponent leaning slightly to the right (away from the opponent's right hand) he could easily slip, and shoulder roll with impunity.



Just to reinforce Chris' point.

If you take an athlete to the gym, teach them the stance and defences then ask them to jab, thats where the punch will come from.
It's the most natural and comfortable position.

[Scrap]

Little story,National squad Training. One of my Boys Sparring with a good Fighter, now my Kid Boxed Hands low like Tommy and was Schooling the other Kid. The National Coach said Scrap youve got to get his Hands up, whys that was my reply. He will get Hit said the coach, I said the other guy is getting the shit Beat out of Him with His Hands up. His reply for a Head Coach was classic, Youve got a point there, and walked off. One point you do what suites you if its successfull if not get it changed. Plus if you Box with your Hands up you are waiting to get Hit usually, bad Habit

[donnydarkoIRL]

Little story,National squad Training. One of my Boys Sparring with a good Fighter, now my Kid Boxed Hands low like Tommy and was Schooling the other Kid. The National Coach said Scrap youve got to get his Hands up, whys that was my reply. He will get Hit said the coach, I said the other guy is getting the shit Beat out of Him with His Hands up. His reply for a Head Coach was classic, Youve got a point there, and walked off. One point you do what suites you if its successfull if not get it changed. Plus if you Box with your Hands up you are waiting to get Hit usually, bad Habit

Easier to throw if your hands are lower.

A clever trainer taught me that

[Trainer Monkey]

Little story,National squad Training. One of my Boys Sparring with a good Fighter, now my Kid Boxed Hands low like Tommy and was Schooling the other Kid. The National Coach said Scrap youve got to get his Hands up, whys that was my reply. He will get Hit said the coach, I said the other guy is getting the shit Beat out of Him with His Hands up. His reply for a Head Coach was classic, Youve got a point there, and walked off. One point you do what suites you if its successfull if not get it changed. Plus if you Box with your Hands up you are waiting to get Hit usually, bad Habit

There is a reason I prefer a staggered hand approach,vision and being able to block anything coming