Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?

[Kev]

I don't see how Marquez can claim to be number 1. For me Nate Campbell is the lightweight champ as he beat the man considered by everybody to be the best fighter at 130 lbs.

Casamayor may have been the linear champion but he's looked God awful lately. His win over Coralles was wholly uninspired. He got his ass handed to him by Santa Cruz and he went life and death with Katsidis who is a poor mans Gatti.

No way was Casamayor the best lightweight in the division, not in 2008.

I'd have Pac at two. Although his win over Diaz isn't as impressive as a win over Casa he did get the decision over Marquez, and I can't justify putting a fighter above another fighter to whom they lost in the past year.

Campbell must be considered the lightweight number 1 right now, although I guess Marquez has the linear claim.

My own rankings, would be as follows.

1. Campbell
2. Pacquauio
3. Marquez
4. J Diaz
5. Casamayor
6. Santa Cruz
7. Julio Diaz
8. D Diaz
9. Romanov
10. Katsidis

[CutMeMick]

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds.

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

[Lance Uppercut]

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds.

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

Well said.

[ICB]

1. Nate Campbell
2. Juan Manuel Marquez
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Juan Diaz
5. Joel Casamayor
6. Julio Diaz
7. David Diaz
8. Santa Cruz
9. Yuri Romanov
10. Breidis Prescott

[Fenster]

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact.

[ICB]

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact.

Juan Diaz was considered the man when Nate Campbell beat him and he was considered the best Lightweight at that time and was also top 10 P4P.

[Fenster]

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact.

Juan Diaz was considered the man when Nate Campbell beat him and he was considered the best Lightweight at that time and was also top 10 P4P.

Casa was the man from when he beat Corrales

[Kev]

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact.

You know, it's a really complicated picture. I completely agree with you that according to the Ring criteria that Marquez is now the man as he did indeed beat the man and is now the linear champ.

But it's more confusing than that. The Ring rankings are devised as a way to rank fairly and accurately the state of each boxing's divisons so that mess of the alphabet titles and dodgy organisation rankings becomes clearer.

In this particular instance though going strictly by the Ring's ranking criteria only serves to muddy the waters further so to speak.

Coming into his fight with Nate Campbell there is absolutely no question that Juan Diaz WAS considered the man to beat in the division. Casa had been the beneficiary of arguably one of the worst judging decisions of all time and had looked terrible against Santa Cruz. Furthermore he simply wasn't fighting and was too inactive.

Diaz on the other hand was on a tear through the division, holding 3 belts and forcing reigning champ Julio Diaz and lightweight great Acelino Freitas to quit on their stools from the punishment he was dishing out.

There is absolutely no question that Juan Diaz was THE man in the lightweight division. He didn't have the claim to lineage that Casa had but he clearly and undisputabley the best fighter in the division.

So Campbells dominating victory over him was huge.

Meanwhile Casa had had like one fight in two years and got schooled, it was simply no contest as to who was the champ in the division.

So whilst I agree with you that the 'correct' ranking is to put Marquezs as champ for beating Casa, this is simply not an accurate reflection of the lightweight division.

Marquez didn't beat the best lightweight, he didn't beat the real number one in the division. Nate Campbell did when he beat Juan Diaz.

This means that the Ring rankings in this particular case actually produce an innacurate picture of the lightweight division.

It's something of an irony but shows that even the Ring rankings are flawed and that indeed that ranking fighters is very hard if not impossible to do.

[Fenster]

Casamayor became THE MAN after beating Diego Corrales.

Diaz has NEVER been THE MAN - which means Campbell's victory over him means he's NEVER been THE MAN either (how stupid is this stuff )

I agree with your formlines though. I don't think Casamayor had been the top lightweight for a good while.

[OumaFan]

I have some problems with the whole lineal idea, I really don't care about it even slightly actually, but if you want to go ahead and call him the man cause of that fine but Nate's win over Diaz was clearly more impressive. I'm not even sure if that's debatable, Casa hasn't looked good for years.

[antimoron]

Some of you guys made me laugh. If Pacman beats up a 29-34 year old fighter, he is branded as fighting oldies and past their prime. If Marquez beats up a 37 year old fighter he should be number 1.. What the hell If Pac moves up and beat a recognize belt holder he is branded as fighting the weakest champion (as the case against D. Diaz). But if Marquez beats up and win the fraud belt of Casa(fraud coz it was a gift from Santa Cruz) he is the greatest? You guys are really funny here, like the way you don't give credit to campbell's accomplishment. Campbell beats up a PRIME+MULTIPLE BELT HOLDER fighter. Campbell should be above Pacman and Marquez. Don't reason out like Marquez beat the man who beat Campbell before.. Hey the man who beat Campbell before was a fresher Casa not a 37yr old Casa. If you consider this kind of reasoning, heres another one, Pac beat D.Diaz who knock Santa Cruz out who win on most peoples eye but lost to Casa in a controversial decision. Its sucks right... Lets just wait who clean up the division but for the mean time i give Campbell his credit and rank as the man of the lightweight. He may be a weak champ with many L on his resume but has the credential and wins against credible champs as of press time.

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact.

This is exactly how I see it!

[Fenster]

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact.

This is exactly how I see it!

You're smarter than what you look

(think ive done that one before..a?)

[Kev]

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds.

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.

Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.

But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?

I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.

But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.

Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.

He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.

Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.

Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.

Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.

Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.

[brucelee]

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds.

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.

Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.

But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?

I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.

But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.

Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.

He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.

Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.

Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.

Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.

Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.

You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.

No way would it go to Marquez.