Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?

[Kev]

I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez.

They definitely need to fight each other.

BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!

Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?

That makes no sense to me at all.

That's why I went with......

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!

I can't wait to see how this falls out.

I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.

[Spicoli]

Forget the carnival trinkets and shiny things.I'm pretty conflicted on this.In a head to head match up and based on most recent preformances.....I really think Marquez is just too sharp and down the middle all around for Campbell.

But,I consider Campbell to be numero uno,Marquez 2nd,and Pac 3rd. what do we base it on.....# of belts ?Quality of opposition in respected division?Time at that weight and fight by fight quality?Then again,does one Casamayor battering win = wins over Juan Diaz,Kid Diamond,Quiles (ugh),Hlatswayo,Matt Zegan...Huh?,Oh and a loss to Lorenzo,who was just bludgeoned by Humberto Soto ?

Then again x 2.....Marquez is a P4P top tier fighter with out question......and is fresh off two ,some would say solidly,even up fights with the #1 P4P fighter today,Manny Pacquiao?3rd then again ...Awwwh nevermind

They need to fight,bottom line!!

[XaduBoxer]

I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez.

They definitely need to fight each other.

BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!

Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?

That makes no sense to me at all.

That's why I went with......

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!

I can't wait to see how this falls out.

I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.

My exact the same sentiment/stand as posted on the other thread...

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

You can also add the argument on how these guys win over the fallen champs...

- Pacquiao totally dominated David Diaz before the 9th round stoppage
- Campbell dominated Juan
- JMM and Casa fought a close fight until the time of 11th round stoppage
.

[Kev]

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

[Galaxy]

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

[Kev]

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up

[DAWGSWIN]

I voted no, but I understand the reasoning. Based on the results of their fights I think Pac should be #1. I know they were close fights, but decisions mean something. BTW, I don't won't to hijack this thread, but I didn't see their second fight as controversial as some writers (Dan Rafael) seem to suggest. It was a split decision and the judges cards were not out of whack. Anyone agree or disagree?

[antimoron]

I voted no, but I understand the reasoning. Based on the results of their fights I think Pac should be #1. I know they were close fights, but decisions mean something. BTW, I don't won't to hijack this thread, but I didn't see their second fight as controversial as some writers (Dan Rafael) seem to suggest. It was a split decision and the judges cards were not out of whack. Anyone agree or disagree?

Agree there mate.. there's no robbery in the pac-jmm2.. it's either way.. people seem to forget that its a very very close fight that the only deciding factor is the one that made the difference which is the knockdown.. you can't argue about punchstat coz its not like there are 100-300 punches diffrence.. if you saw the Calderon-Cazares2 fight you know what im saying about punchstat.. Calderon only landed somewhere around 90 jab & power punches while Cazares landed about around 110 jab & power punches and the outcome is Calderon the winner. Hope you guys get my point.

[Galaxy]

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

[XaduBoxer]

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

One question here, will DelaHoya become the no. 1 P4P if he beats PAC come Dec. 6 ?

I think the answer is NO but Oscar can make a spin on it by beating the man seating on the P4P throne...
.

[Kev]

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago

[uptoscratch]

[QUOTE=Galaxy;598025]

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Exactly. Marquez might well be the third-best fighter in the division (or even the fourth best after Juan Diaz), but he's still the champ because he beat the champ. Campbell is unquestionably the #1 contender.

Nate's a great fighter, he handily conquered the guy who everyone thought was the cream of the division, and he'd probably be a favorite against JMM if (hopefully when) they fight, but none of that makes him the champ.

As for Pac, considering his next fight is at welterweight, why worry about him? If he was seriously interested in being the #1 lightweight, he could have pushed for a fight against Casamayor or Campbell. Instead he's going for a big payday with ODLH, and hey, good for him, but worry about where he ranks when he decides to pick a division to hang around in.

[Pugilistic]

I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez.

They definitely need to fight each other.

BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!

Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?

That makes no sense to me at all.

That's why I went with......

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!

I can't wait to see how this falls out.

I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.

I have Pac third on the rating at lightweight below Campbell and Marquez because although he holds a win over Marquez it was in the weightclass below and Marquez fought and beat the lineal champ Casamayor where Pacquiao beat a title holder David Diaz.

Marquez is more accomplished at Lightweight than Pac and Pacquiao being number 1 on the P4P list should have no effect on his ranking at lightweight. I currently have Campbell as the top guy at 135 because he beat the number 1 guy in the division Juan Diaz, Diaz was the man to beat and he did it which should make him number 1 and Marquez should be second as he beat the linear champ in Casamayor and Pac is third because he beat the Wbc champ David Diaz.