Bute v. Andrade Poll

[montsegur1234]

A few points:

- Interesting fact: Marlon B. Wright, the referee for the fight, is a personal friend of Howard Grant's (Montreal native), Andrade's trainer.

- The fight result is very controversial in Montreal. On Montreal Talk Radio, a majority of listeners say Andrade was robbed. A caller said it was the most egregious boxing outcome he ever saw.

- A boxer must go to the neutral corner when his opponent is on the ground as result of a punch. He told Andrade to go to the neutral corner three times.

[Conrad]

I'm just playing Devil's Advoccate here but Bute probably would've won anyway whether he was counted correctly or not...

There was literally 2 seconds left when Bute went down. Even if the ref had counted him to 10 correctly, then allowed him to continue fighting the final bell would have gone before Andrade got to him again.

I know Bute was out on hs feet but he was standing so I reckon he would have been capable of raising his gloves. Thats all he would have needed to do to win the fight, raise his gloves...

All this is hyerthetcal anyway, if the ref had done his job then we'd know for sure

[RP33]

I'm just playing Devil's Advoccate here but Bute probably would've won anyway whether he was counted correctly or not...

There was literally 2 seconds left when Bute went down. Even if the ref had counted him to 10 correctly, then allowed him to continue fighting the final bell would have gone before Andrade got to him again.

I know Bute was out on hs feet but he was standing so I reckon he would have been capable of raising his gloves. Thats all he would have needed to do to win the fight, raise his gloves...

All this is hyerthetcal anyway, if the ref had done his job then we'd know for sure

the question is was he down for 10 seconds.. the fact that there was no time remaining for andrade to get to bute is irrelevant..

you have to think of it as it was the end of any other round, not the end of the fight, because the rule is that you can't get saved by the bell.. so if it was the end of the second round, and this happened, the ref starts to count, if he doesn't get up by 10, it's KO obviously.. if he gets up before 10, the ref decides if he can continue to fight.. thing is, if it's the end of a round, the fighter goes back to his corner, the doctor will probably evaluate him along with the rest of his team, the ref will probably come over, and it's a different story.. the fact that bute got up before 10, wobbly and all, it would've been even more controversial if he called it a KO considering he fought for 12 3 minute rounds, and just because he wouldn't be able to fight past that, doesn't mean he loses the fight..

i counted from when he got knocked down, and i was at about 8 i believe.. rematch would be great, but i feel pretty confident in saying that bute won that fight.

[CFH]

I'm just playing Devil's Advoccate here but Bute probably would've won anyway whether he was counted correctly or not...

There was literally 2 seconds left when Bute went down. Even if the ref had counted him to 10 correctly, then allowed him to continue fighting the final bell would have gone before Andrade got to him again.

I know Bute was out on hs feet but he was standing so I reckon he would have been capable of raising his gloves. Thats all he would have needed to do to win the fight, raise his gloves...

All this is hyerthetcal anyway, if the ref had done his job then we'd know for sure

the question is was he down for 10 seconds.. the fact that there was no time remaining for andrade to get to bute is irrelevant..

you have to think of it as it was the end of any other round, not the end of the fight, because the rule is that you can't get saved by the bell.. so if it was the end of the second round, and this happened, the ref starts to count, if he doesn't get up by 10, it's KO obviously.. if he gets up before 10, the ref decides if he can continue to fight.. thing is, if it's the end of a round, the fighter goes back to his corner, the doctor will probably evaluate him along with the rest of his team, the ref will probably come over, and it's a different story.. the fact that bute got up before 10, wobbly and all, it would've been even more controversial if he called it a KO considering he fought for 12 3 minute rounds, and just because he wouldn't be able to fight past that, doesn't mean he loses the fight..

i counted from when he got knocked down, and i was at about 8 i believe.. rematch would be great, but i feel pretty confident in saying that bute won that fight.

The more I think about it, the more I can understand the perspective you are presenting, and if it I was just looking at the final around in isolation I would agree, as it is I'm not sure how I feel about the end of the fight at this point.

However, the ref was favoring Bute from the outset, letting him hold without warning (even warning Andrade for holding), letting him grab at Andrade's legs on 3 occasions, giving Bute a break whenever Andrade seemed to hurt him a bit, and just generally refing the fight in a very biased way. For me, this fight ATM is an ND and there needs to be a rematch in a neutral location to determine a winner. Sadly, I think Bute schools Andrade next time, but it needs to happen.

Edit: I just remembered all the headbutts and elbows Andrade was getting away with, so perhaps the refs was simply incompetent? Though I do feel he was clearly favoring Bute.

[DC Amateur Boxing]

I'm just playing Devil's Advoccate here but Bute probably would've won anyway whether he was counted correctly or not...

There was literally 2 seconds left when Bute went down. Even if the ref had counted him to 10 correctly, then allowed him to continue fighting the final bell would have gone before Andrade got to him again.

Couldn't be saved by the bell in the last round of this fight (per rules). If he was unable to continue after a real 10 count, fight would have been stopped. By my 10 count, he was wobbling and not even able to face the referee at that time. Now, most refs wouldn't have stopped it unless he was not able to stand up. . .but this ref was so blatant with his cheating - it's a shame.

[Rantcatrat]

I'm just playing Devil's Advoccate here but Bute probably would've won anyway whether he was counted correctly or not...

There was literally 2 seconds left when Bute went down. Even if the ref had counted him to 10 correctly, then allowed him to continue fighting the final bell would have gone before Andrade got to him again.

Couldn't be saved by the bell in the last round of this fight (per rules). If he was unable to continue after a real 10 count, fight would have been stopped. By my 10 count, he was wobbling and not even able to face the referee at that time. Now, most refs wouldn't have stopped it unless he was not able to stand up. . .but this ref was so blatant with his cheating - it's a shame.

Author calls Wright's actions a perception problem:
“Fighting Words” – Oy, Canada: Bute-Andrade Controversy - Boxing News

[Wayne]

3 things wrong with that fight and all stem from the ref:

1. The extraordinary amount of clinching going on and the lack of the ref warning about it. He warned Bute 2 times in the 11th and stated he would take a point but didn't.
2. The slow count after the knockdown. It bought Bute time and ate up precious seconds.
3. The ref's zeal at getting Andrade back into a neutral corner. I've seen in many fights after a knockdown where a fighter walks around to that degree. What Andrade did was not extraordinary and given the circumstances it wasn't a big deal.

That being said, I thought Bute put on a spectacular performance when he actually boxed, showing power and speed and I would like to see him a second time (without all the clinching). He had nowhere near the poise of Mikkel Kessler who fought pretty much the same fight except Kessler didn't tire out.

[Kev]

A few points:

- Interesting fact: Marlon B. Wright, the referee for the fight, is a personal friend of Howard Grant's (Montreal native), Andrade's trainer.

- The fight result is very controversial in Montreal. On Montreal Talk Radio, a majority of listeners say Andrade was robbed. A caller said it was the most egregious boxing outcome he ever saw.

- A boxer must go to the neutral corner when his opponent is on the ground as result of a punch. He told Andrade to go to the neutral corner three times.

I really don't think for a second that the fight was fixed or that the ref favoured one fighter over the other.

I just think it was a very unique high pressure situation and the ref didn't handle it well.

To be honest I really don't know the rulings well enough to know if the ref acted wrongly or not according to the letter of the law either.

I mean I know that the regulations state that when a fighter is knocked down the other fighter MUST immediately go to the furthest neutral corner and that he MUST remain there until the referee resumes the fight.

Now Andrade clearly wasn't right up against the ropes in the neutral corner and if he was walking towards to the center of the ring, which it seems he was to be completely fair to the referee, I guess the ref felt he had to tell him to move back.

It may have been one of those cases where the ref acted in poor judgement but in his defense this was a pretty freak circumstance and I imagine all three of them in the ring were pretty shocked by what was going on.

I mean if Andrade had just gone immediately to a neutral corner and not moved the ref wouldn't have told him to move back.

So yes I do think it was harsh, but ultimately Andrade to a degree was responsible as he did move from the corner, even if only by a little amount.

Just one of those things I guess.

I hope they have a rematch though, I think both fighters will feel like they need some redemption after that.

[montsegur1234]

A few points:

- Interesting fact: Marlon B. Wright, the referee for the fight, is a personal friend of Howard Grant's (Montreal native), Andrade's trainer.

- The fight result is very controversial in Montreal. On Montreal Talk Radio, a majority of listeners say Andrade was robbed. A caller said it was the most egregious boxing outcome he ever saw.

- A boxer must go to the neutral corner when his opponent is on the ground as result of a punch. He told Andrade to go to the neutral corner three times.

Controversy or not:

- the referree respected the neutral corner rule
- Bute would have gotten up in any event
- Bute completly dominated the fight
- The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up
- Bute would probably win against Andrade again
- Calling the Montreal boxing scene corrupt is laughable (again, Marlon B. Wright is a personal friend of Howard Grant's and he could actually have been more severe towards Andrade (elbows etc.)

[hfahrenheit]

[quote=montsegur1234;623190]

Controversy or not:

- The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up

You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

[ICB]

[quote=hfahrenheit;623196]

Controversy or not:

- The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up

You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

[hfahrenheit]

[quote=ICB;623204]

You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

[ICB]

[quote=hfahrenheit;623208]

No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

Ahh my bad i did misread that i agree with you on that is indeed ridiculous, but i disagree with you that Bute deserved to lose. The timer in the round was up so regardless of the ref. Ridiculously telling off Andrade about not being in the neutral corner is irrelvant. Because Andrade wouldn't have got another chance to finish Bute.

The only thing that should be controversial with hindsight, is whether or not the ref should of let Bute finish the fight. Bute did get up at the count 8, he looked at his corner twice so he was still aware, and he responded to the ref.

No rules were actually broken although the ref did clearly use the rules to his advantage, but if Andrade would of been given the fight with no time left in the round. I think that would of been a traversity IMO, it would be Julio Cesar Chavez vs Meldrick Taylor all over again.

[montsegur1234]

[quote=ICB;623211]

No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

Ahh my bad i did misread that i agree with you on that is indeed ridiculous, but i disagree with you that Bute deserved to lose. The timer in the round was up so regardless of the ref. Ridiculously telling off Andrade about not being in the neutral corner is irrelvant. Because Andrade wouldn't have got another chance to finish Bute.

The only thing that should be controversial with hindsight, is whether or not the ref should of let Bute finish the fight. Bute did get up at the count 8, he looked at his corner twice so he was still aware, and he responded to the ref.

No rules were actually broken although the ref did clearly use the rules to his advantage, but if Andrade would of been given the fight with no time left in the round. I think that would of been a traversity IMO, it would be Julio Cesar Chavez vs Meldrick Taylor all over again.

Hey guys,

Of course I meant that Bute could have averted the risk of being knocked out with more disciplined boxing in the 12th. But he was indeed knocked out. However, I understand how my comment could have been interpreted differently. But people must say a lot of outlandish stuff on this forum for you guys to think this lol.

All I am saying is that Bute would have won the fight in any event.
It would have been another story altogether if the knockout had occurred 1 min before.

[montsegur1234]

[quote=hfahrenheit;623208]

No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

I am not diminishing the knock down. He just shouldn't have put himself in the position of trading punches in the 12th round of a fight in which he completely dominated. I am looking forward to the rematch; notwithstanding the controversy, it was a great fight.