Who was better....

[Taeth]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

[Taeth]

What would happen if Hagler at foughten a natural middleweight version of Leonard, who could move for 15 rounds, and could punch equivalently harder at the weight? Leonard was untried for all intense and purposes against a guy at the highest weight he had ever been at. He hadn't had a real fight in three years, he couldn't maintain his movement for even 6 rounds. I think people are forgetting the factor of Hagler's size, and that with that advantage he was still on basically an even playing field with an old Duran, rusty Leonard, and he basically outchinned Hearns which Leonard had done before, and lesser guys have done since.

[Trainer Monkey]

What makes these lists so subjective,it depends what you want to see out of a guy that determines where you rank them
Leanord is a dazziling fighter to watch
Hearns had a mean streak 7 miles wide and twice as deep
Hagler and Duran were more complete fighters
So any attempt to rate them against each other will get tainted with your own subjective desires for what you wish to see from a fighter

[Taeth]

What makes these lists so subjective,it depends what you want to see out of a guy that determines where you rank them
Leanord is a dazziling fighter to watch
Hearns had a mean streak 7 miles wide and twice as deep
Hagler and Duran were more complete fighters
So any attempt to rate them against each other will get tainted with your own subjective desires for what you wish to see from a fighter

Obviously I like Leonard, but besides him I appreciate all the others equally, and I like them about the same. Just IMO Hagler wasn't as good as the rest p4p, not that he was way worse, but he wasn't as good.

[DAWGSWIN]

What makes these lists so subjective,it depends what you want to see out of a guy that determines where you rank them
Leanord is a dazziling fighter to watch
Hearns had a mean streak 7 miles wide and twice as deep
Hagler and Duran were more complete fighters
So any attempt to rate them against each other will get tainted with your own subjective desires for what you wish to see from a fighter

Obviously I like Leonard, but besides him I appreciate all the others equally, and I like them about the same. Just IMO Hagler wasn't as good as the rest p4p, not that he was way worse, but he wasn't as good.

I feel the same about Hagler. I would also take any of them over Hopkins. They were all crowd pleasers!

[Taeth]

p4p I think Hearns would have easily used his height and speed to outbox Hopkins, maybe even just him naturally going up to middleweight how he was.

p4p obviously Leonard is better than Bernard, it would be interesting though because HOpkins deals with speed and combinations so well, he was also pretty quick hismelf, but once again Hopkins beats the Leonard who came up to middleweight, but not a natural middleweight version of Leonard, Leonard against guys his own size was similar to Calzaghe, only a much sharper puncher, considerably faster, and better technique.

I think Hagler-Hopkins would be a great and even matchup. Hopkins has that ability to spoil any offense in the sport, he did it to some of the best offensive fighters in this generation (Trinidad, RJJ, Calzaghe, even a sharp ODLH had amazing offensive skills), also he spoiled an accurate puncher in Winky Wright who reminds me a lot of Hagler except that he was quicker and replaced power for defensive skills. Either way both of these guys can adapt in the ring like nobodies business, they both are street smart in there, and they both are amazingly well rounded.

vs Duran: I think its a toss up, I think it depends of their styles mesh, perhaps Hopkins' movement gives Duran a ton of problems, but I am not sure if even Hopkins being one of the best inside fighters I have ever seen could match Duran in the furnace.

I admit these guys skills, I mean Hopkins is one of my top 5 favorite fighters ever, and I still think he wouldn't fair so well against these three.

[ICB]

I'll reply to you tomorrow Taeth too late here and i'll have to break it all down, because you posted alot of good points.

[ICB]

What would happen if Hagler at foughten a natural middleweight version of Leonard, who could move for 15 rounds, and could punch equivalently harder at the weight? Leonard was untried for all intense and purposes against a guy at the highest weight he had ever been at. He hadn't had a real fight in three years, he couldn't maintain his movement for even 6 rounds. I think people are forgetting the factor of Hagler's size, and that with that advantage he was still on basically an even playing field with an old Duran, rusty Leonard, and he basically outchinned Hearns which Leonard had done before, and lesser guys have done since.

Marvin Hagler wasn't in his prime against SRL far from it, he had 66 fights and atleast 50 percent of those fights were tough. SRL wouldn't of even beat that version of Marvin Hagler, had he not demanded a bigger ring/gloves/12 rounds ETC.

And again just because a fighter started at a smaller weight class, doesn't mean thats there natural weight class. SRL went as high as almost a Light Heavyweight against Donny LaLonde, the size difference between 5'9 Marvin Hagler, 5'10 Sugar Ray Leonard isn't that much at all.

And i can't think of many Middleweights who moved gracefully, around the ring only RJJ/SRR. But a prime Marvin Hagler could cut the ring off very well.

Roberto Duran was not old he was coming off one of his best performances, against Davey Moore. Who was a highly rated prospect like David Reid, and Roberto Duran just battered him from pillar to post.

Roberto Duran was 152 for that fight and he was 156 for the Marvin Hagler fight. Roberto Duran may of not been at his best at Middleweight, but he was still very good at that weight. Which showed when he upset Iran Barkley at Middleweight in 1989.

Who had just come off beating Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran just ate all of Iran Barkley's shots like nothing. And Iran Barkley was a huge guy for a Middleweight he was like 6'1.

Lastly SRL didn't outchin Thomas Hearns you need to watch it again, SRL was outboxed throughout the fight. And Thomas Hearns suspect stamina let him down not his chin.

The fact is except for Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler didn't really have a size advantage. Over Thomas Hearns or Sugar Ray leonard. Marvin Hagler wasn't a big Middleweight at all.

[Taeth]

What would happen if Hagler at foughten a natural middleweight version of Leonard, who could move for 15 rounds, and could punch equivalently harder at the weight? Leonard was untried for all intense and purposes against a guy at the highest weight he had ever been at. He hadn't had a real fight in three years, he couldn't maintain his movement for even 6 rounds. I think people are forgetting the factor of Hagler's size, and that with that advantage he was still on basically an even playing field with an old Duran, rusty Leonard, and he basically outchinned Hearns which Leonard had done before, and lesser guys have done since.

Marvin Hagler wasn't in his prime against SRL far from it, he had 66 fights and atleast 50 percent of those fights were tough. SRL wouldn't of even beat that version of Marvin Hagler, had he not demanded a bigger ring/gloves/12 rounds ETC.

And again just because a fighter started at a smaller weight class, doesn't mean thats there natural weight class. SRL went as high as almost a Light Heavyweight against Donny LaLonde, the size difference between 5'9 Marvin Hagler, 5'10 Sugar Ray Leonard isn't that much at all.

And i can't think of many Middleweights who moved gracefully, around the ring only RJJ/SRR. But a prime Marvin Hagler could cut the ring off very well.

Roberto Duran was not old he was coming off one of his best performances, against Davey Moore. Who was a highly rated prospect like David Reid, and Roberto Duran just battered him from pillar to post.

Roberto Duran was 152 for that fight and he was 156 for the Marvin Hagler fight. Roberto Duran may of not been at his best at Middleweight, but he was still very good at that weight. Which showed when he upset Iran Barkley at Middleweight in 1989.

Who had just come off beating Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran just ate all of Iran Barkley's shots like nothing. And Iran Barkley was a huge guy for a Middleweight he was like 6'1.

Lastly SRL didn't outchin Thomas Hearns you need to watch it again, SRL was outboxed throughout the fight. And Thomas Hearns suspect stamina let him down not his chin.

The fact is except for Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler didn't really have a size advantage. Over Thomas Hearns or Sugar Ray leonard. Marvin Hagler wasn't a big Middleweight at all.

You usually know what you are talking about, but I have seen all those Hagler fights, and most of them weren't wars at all. An example was Hagler vs Mugabi, Hagler boxed the shit out of Mugabi, Mugabi was a poor boxer, he had decent speed and good power, but he didn't land all that much against Hagler.

If Hearns wasn't a natural WW, why did he fight from 1977 to 1981 more or less at welterweight? Obviously he carried his power up, but it wasn't the same as what it was p4p at welterweight. Also are you seriously goign to argue Leonard was bigger than Hagler or close to the same size because he was taller? Maybe you are going to argue that Robinson was bigger than Lamotta because he was taller. That's stupid Leonard was way smaller then Hagler in the ring, he looked about 15 pounds lighter. You talk about all Hagler's wars, waht about what Leonard went through with Duran in their first fight? What he went through against Hearns? His detached retina? Him not fighting for 3 years. Hearns and Leonard were able to move up because of their skill, speed, and power. You are using height to compare size which is stupid because Mike Tyson was shorter than Leonard and Hearns, is he smaller? Hagler had so much more natural muscle density not to mention his concrete head that he was a very big middleweight like Lamotta. He didn't fight that many wars, and the guys you mentioned like Roldan were roll overs, I mean Michael Nunn ko'ed Roldan.

90% of his opponents Hagler steam rolled. Same with Hopkins who had limited troubles against guys like Echols, but you can't call those wars.

Also of course Hearns' chin let him down, obviously he was a little spent, but mostly his inability to fight on the inside, and his inability to take Ray's power let him down. He was tired, but so was Leoanrd, Leonard was getting battered the whole fight.

ALso I didn't read it but you said Duran-Hagler wasn't close? Maybe you should watch it again. Hagler barely won that fight, and that was because of his size advantage.

Also I am not comparing records I am comparing what I've seen and Hagler was barely better than these guys at his own weight class. The fact is that he could have moved up to crusierweight or higher had he foughten longer, he wasn't that much slower against Leoanrd than he was earlier, he didn't have the ring rust Leonard had, he should have won that fihgt, and he should have dominated Duran, but he couldn't. He wasn't the best tactician, he was relatively easy to hit against the top guys, and he wasnt' overly fast. He obviously was able to steamroll average competition because like I said he was in fact a great fighter, but not like Duran or Leonard or even Hearns.

[Violent Demise]

Hearns
Hagler
Leonard

[Master]

P4P

Hearns - welter to light heavy champ
Duran - greatest lightweight and beat Moore and Barclay
Hagler - best middleweight ever
SRL - Great heart, skills, chin but only at welter

[DAWGSWIN]

From those 3.

SRL
Hagler
Hearns



*I rate Duran higher then them in a P4P status.

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.

[Trainer Monkey]

That's a thread in and of itself. I don't get how so many people can rate Duran so damn high on the all time p4p lists. On the basis of what? his time at lightweight? HIs badass image? Would you rate Duran higher than Arguello? Higher than Chavez? There are a number of fighters who have more victories against big names than Duran. Fighters who have had far more success moving up through the divisions. Who's the biggest name Duran has a +record against? Iknow Duran is good, but he aint that good. IMHO

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.

Obviously not counting that Hopkins was the prison system champion

[DAWGSWIN]

Are you kidding me Duran would mop the floor with Arguello or Chavez. He is on another level, he is bigger and stronger than Chavez, a more vicious inside fighter, harder to hit, faster.

Duran beat a ton of guys, I dont' wnat to go through it all but Leonard was among them.

He fought Hagler who people thought would kill him becuase he was a natural lightweight at one point, and gave Hagler a huge scare. He came back repeatedly at way higher weights to knock out prospects.

ANyways based on the fighters you mentioned

obviously
1) Ray Leonard, He didn't fight in three years and still came out close to even with Hagler in their fight... if not winning the fight. He beat Hearns when they were in their prime, he beat Duran in their second meeting, and their first was a great battle. He stopped Benitez. IMO he is quite a bit ahead of the rest of the field.
2) Thomas Hearns: I think if he was the size he was at welterweight naturally at middleweight he would be 6'3-6'4 and hit as hard as Lennox Lewis. Lets see Hagler try to deal with that kind of power when Thomas Hearns buckeled his knees with that first uppercut.
3) Marvin Hagler: I know he was a great fighter, but I think he gets overrated if anyone on here. He biggest wins were against smaller guys, he didn't fight guys who ended up having the greatest track record at middleweight, He is kind of like Hopkins was before Hopkins went up to LHW and beat Tarver, WRight, IMO CAlzaghe, and Pavlik. Only while Hopkins did that Hagler whether he won or not was embarrassed by Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years because of a detached retina. People say HAgler was past it, but he was what 32 or 33? Hopkins has been holding at least even with the likes of Calzaghe and Wright while being 7 years their seniors. Then what he did to Pavlik who IMO is similar to Mugabi in hype and form, maybe will be better by the time his career is over.

Yes, Hagler was 32 and had been fighting for 14 years at the time of the SRL fight. That fight was his 67th. Hopkins has 56 in 20 years.

Obviously not counting that Hopkins was the prison system champion

Nor was I counting Marvin Hagler's amateur career, when he was AAU champion.

And another thing, that uppercut was at best an attention getter. People drag that out constantly as if Hearns was about to KO Hagler. If anything it hastened his own demise!

[GAME]

Its gotta be Leonard cuz he beat em all !