Quote Originally Posted by CGM View Post
Bilbo, I understand the intent of p4p rankings. Your statement "Without the size difference, and if they were both naturally in the same weight class who would win" comes pretty close, however I think we disagree on the significance of the word naturally. Otherwise your argument is good. Also keep in mind I am not talking about all time p4p, I am talking about current p4p.

IMO the word naturally is used too loosely, it means diffeent things to different people, and has different effects for different fighters. Consider Alexis Arguello. I would not say he was a natural featherweight any more than I would say he was a natural lightweight. He looked pretty conmfortable at all three weights he was champ at. If there was a top guy at lightweight bang goes Arguello's p4p ranking. But there wasn't and his p4p is preserved. However he makes another move up to JWW and runs into a dude called Aaron Pryor. He loses twice, and IMO if he was above Pryor in current p4p rankings, he should no longer be. That doesn't diminish what he has accomplished, nor does it ncessarily affect his all time p4p.

In other words. there are some fighters whose effectiveness is not hurt by a reasonable change in weight. And there are some who are.

OK so PAC is currently a welterweight, although maybe not top 5 according to you. If he is a welterweight, and his Ring magazine p4p Ranking is still #1, then guaranteed his Ring welterweight ranking will also be #1. It must be. Things get too subjective otherwise.

It will be interesting to see if Ring Magazine ranks PAC as a welterweight. If they do rank him as a welterweight, it will have to be at #1. Or he loses their p4p #1.

By the very same logic, Floyd has been ranked as #1 welterweight, even though everyone knows he has not proved himself as such. Probably the only reason he is Ring's #1 welterweight is so they can preserve his current p4p #1.

Suppose PAC decides to stay at ww and fight Cotto or Margarito and loses a close decision. Probably another great achievment for PAC, but his current #1 p4p goes by the wayside. Unfair maybe, but that's the way the ball bounces, regardless of his so called natural weight.

You seem to be implying that Pacquaio is not "natural" at welterweight. While that may or may not true, it is open for debate. It is impossible to quantify, nor does at apply to all fighters in the same way.
But I don't see why weight is a factor at all. Let's consider the current top 10 as provided by the ring magazine, and then try and work out how they came to pick the fighters that they did.

Well number 1 they have Manny Pacquaio. Why is there? Because he has a total of 6 wins against first ballot hall of famers in Erik Morales, Barrera, Marquez and De La Hoya including a staggering 4 knockouts. He's won belts in I believe 4 divisions and been considered the champ in about 6. He's won fights in three different divisions in 2008 alone winning two world titles and beating the world's most popular and well known fighter, a 6 weight champ by knockout and he moved up two weight classes to do it.

Under any criteria you want to analyse by Manny IS the best fighter in the world on merit right now. Nobody else can rival him.

Then when you consider the other placings, although we can all disagree about exact placings every fighter clearly deserves, based on their acomplishments to be ranked where they are.

I have no idea what moving up or down a weight class has to do with it other than that by winning in another weight class and beating another world champ the winner adds to their acomplishments.

Manny beat Oscar so his reputation increases, if he would have lost his reputation would have decreased, or considering he was expected to lose anyway basically stayed the same. But he did what very few thought he could, he beat Oscar, and not just beat him but beat him up.

Therefore he's even more the p4p number 1 in the world now.

If he fights again at welter and loses he won't be p4p number 1 most likely becuase he won't be acomplishing as much.

Kind of like James Toney, who whilst clearly one of the 10 best fighters in the world in the early part of this millenium wasn't ranked p4p because he had moved to heavyweight and clearly, based on results, wasn't doing so well there.

To be honest I think he still desereved a spot after beating Holyfield and Ruiz because his performances were amazing, but as a heavyweight he wasn't rated, a cruel oversight in my view.

I would like to state that I am talking about the James Toney up until a couple years ago at least, not the obese, slow, blubbery mess of a man we see nowadays

But in short Manny IS p4p number 1 now. If he fights Ricky and loses, or Floyd and loses, or Margarito and loses, he won't be p4p 1 any more but until he loses of course he is