A paradox about p4p rankings

[CGM]

Bilbo, I understand the intent of p4p rankings. Your statement "Without the size difference, and if they were both naturally in the same weight class who would win" comes pretty close, however I think we disagree on the significance of the word naturally. Otherwise your argument is good. Also keep in mind I am not talking about all time p4p, I am talking about current p4p.

IMO the word naturally is used too loosely, it means diffeent things to different people, and has different effects for different fighters. Consider Alexis Arguello. I would not say he was a natural featherweight any more than I would say he was a natural lightweight. He looked pretty conmfortable at all three weights he was champ at. If there was a top guy at lightweight bang goes Arguello's p4p ranking. But there wasn't and his p4p is preserved. However he makes another move up to JWW and runs into a dude called Aaron Pryor. He loses twice, and IMO if he was above Pryor in current p4p rankings, he should no longer be. That doesn't diminish what he has accomplished, nor does it ncessarily affect his all time p4p.

In other words. there are some fighters whose effectiveness is not hurt by a reasonable change in weight. And there are some who are.

OK so PAC is currently a welterweight, although maybe not top 5 according to you. If he is a welterweight, and his Ring magazine p4p Ranking is still #1, then guaranteed his Ring welterweight ranking will also be #1. It must be. Things get too subjective otherwise.

It will be interesting to see if Ring Magazine ranks PAC as a welterweight. If they do rank him as a welterweight, it will have to be at #1. Or he loses their p4p #1.

By the very same logic, Floyd has been ranked as #1 welterweight, even though everyone knows he has not proved himself as such. Probably the only reason he is Ring's #1 welterweight is so they can preserve his current p4p #1.

Suppose PAC decides to stay at ww and fight Cotto or Margarito and loses a close decision. Probably another great achievment for PAC, but his current #1 p4p goes by the wayside. Unfair maybe, but that's the way the ball bounces, regardless of his so called natural weight.

You seem to be implying that Pacquaio is not "natural" at welterweight. While that may or may not true, it is open for debate. It is impossible to quantify, nor does at apply to all fighters in the same way.

[Scrap]

Bilbo if you understand it, it makes perfect sense

[TitoFan]

P4p is an attempt to compare, on an even keel, fighters that can't be compared conventionally because of the weight difference. It's a bit like when you say "per capita". For instance, a city like Detroit might have less crime overall than New York City, let's say. But maybe if you compare based on a "per capita" basis, Detroit might have more crime. You need to compare things which have a common denominator.

[Kev]

P4p is an attempt to compare, on an even keel, fighters that can't be compared conventionally because of the weight difference. It's a bit like when you say "per capita". For instance, a city like Detroit might have less crime overall than New York City, let's say. But maybe if you compare based on a "per capita" basis, Detroit might have more crime. You need to compare things which have a common denominator.

I'm always impressed by people who manage to say in one sentence what it takes me at least a couple paragraphs to articulate

I think I need some kind of bluster control

[Kev]

Bilbo if you understand it, it makes perfect sense

You mean like salvation..............and marmite?

[CGM]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

[antimoron]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

they will not rank him on welter and jr. welter... they have him on lightweight... Pac defies weight classes that makes him special..

[CGM]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

they will not rank him on welter and jr. welter... they have him on lightweight... Pac defies weight classes that makes him special..

OK I guessed wrong. They have him at #2 lightweight, behind Marquez and Campbell, and #5 Welterweight, and #1 pfp. As of Dec 14. Go figure.

[antimoron]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

they will not rank him on welter and jr. welter... they have him on lightweight... Pac defies weight classes that makes him special..

OK I guessed wrong. They have him at #2 lightweight, behind Marquez and Campbell, and #5 Welterweight, and #1 pfp. As of Dec 14. Go figure.

ok i saw it.. man that welter rank is too much... #5? RING MAG? got to talk to doug f. about it..

[Kev]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

The Ring rankings for Manny are a little strange to be honest.

He's rated number in the world p4p, number 3 at lightweight behind Marquez and Campbell and number 5 at welterweight, a division that has no champ.

It appears strange but not really when you consider that all the rankings are based on different factors.

At lightweight, Marquez defeated Casamayor who was the linear champ, something very important to the Ring who follow the belt lineage like it's the line of David so Marquez is number 1. Campbell is at 2 at lightweight as he defeated Juan Diaz who by overwhelming and universal consent was seen as the best at lightweight having unified 2, maybe even 3 belts I can't remember whilst Casamayor was looking God awful.

Manny got his belt by beating the weakest link in David Diaz so at lightweight those rankings make sense, based on acomplishments within that division.

At welter he's number 5 behind Margarito, Cotto, Mosely and Clottey, with Williams and Floyd no longer rated as Paul moved up and Floyd retired.

Again based on acomplishments within that weight class the Ring have it spot on imo.

But when it comes to p4p the weight classes are disregarded and the fighters's acomplishments overall are taken into account irrespective of weight.

Manny has been on fire the last couple years and has a record that is hands down the best of any current fighter so he is overwhelmingly the p4p best in the world.

Does that mean I think he could beat Paul Williams or Tony Margarito? Hell no he's too small, but it's irelevent, this is p4p and wins in 3 weight classes with two world titles and a win over a legend who lost a split decision to the other p4p best Floyd only two fights prior means Manny has acomplished the most of any fighter currently in action.

So in conclusion, he's p4p the number 1, at lightweight number 3 and at welterweight number 5.

Confusing, not at all

[CGM]

heh heh heh. cheers Bilbo good posts. reps on their way.

[Kev]

heh heh heh. cheers Bilbo reps on their way.

Thanks buddy, actually whilst I'm on my soap box.......

Remember the p4p rankings at least those from the Ring are carried out as objectively as possible using scientific method and based on performances and acomplishment's

Who you think would beat who is irelevent, it's the actual fights that have taken place that count.

So you thinking Manny should be downgraded from p4p number 1 status now he has fought at welter because in your opinion he would lose to Margarito makes a mockery of the ranking system.

It's not based on opinion but fact and actual results.

If Manny and Margarito fought and Manny lost he would no longer be p4p number 1, as he would have been beaten. He'd drop down a place or two.

But you can't drop him before the fight has even happened because you assume he would lose as that's ridiculous and makes the rankings nothing more than your opinion of who would win what fights.

And when we consider that everybody thought Oscar would beat Manny easily as well...............

[Kev]

Bilbo, I understand the intent of p4p rankings. Your statement "Without the size difference, and if they were both naturally in the same weight class who would win" comes pretty close, however I think we disagree on the significance of the word naturally. Otherwise your argument is good. Also keep in mind I am not talking about all time p4p, I am talking about current p4p.

IMO the word naturally is used too loosely, it means diffeent things to different people, and has different effects for different fighters. Consider Alexis Arguello. I would not say he was a natural featherweight any more than I would say he was a natural lightweight. He looked pretty conmfortable at all three weights he was champ at. If there was a top guy at lightweight bang goes Arguello's p4p ranking. But there wasn't and his p4p is preserved. However he makes another move up to JWW and runs into a dude called Aaron Pryor. He loses twice, and IMO if he was above Pryor in current p4p rankings, he should no longer be. That doesn't diminish what he has accomplished, nor does it ncessarily affect his all time p4p.

In other words. there are some fighters whose effectiveness is not hurt by a reasonable change in weight. And there are some who are.

OK so PAC is currently a welterweight, although maybe not top 5 according to you. If he is a welterweight, and his Ring magazine p4p Ranking is still #1, then guaranteed his Ring welterweight ranking will also be #1. It must be. Things get too subjective otherwise.

It will be interesting to see if Ring Magazine ranks PAC as a welterweight. If they do rank him as a welterweight, it will have to be at #1. Or he loses their p4p #1.

By the very same logic, Floyd has been ranked as #1 welterweight, even though everyone knows he has not proved himself as such. Probably the only reason he is Ring's #1 welterweight is so they can preserve his current p4p #1.

Suppose PAC decides to stay at ww and fight Cotto or Margarito and loses a close decision. Probably another great achievment for PAC, but his current #1 p4p goes by the wayside. Unfair maybe, but that's the way the ball bounces, regardless of his so called natural weight.

You seem to be implying that Pacquaio is not "natural" at welterweight. While that may or may not true, it is open for debate. It is impossible to quantify, nor does at apply to all fighters in the same way.

But I don't see why weight is a factor at all. Let's consider the current top 10 as provided by the ring magazine, and then try and work out how they came to pick the fighters that they did.

Well number 1 they have Manny Pacquaio. Why is there? Because he has a total of 6 wins against first ballot hall of famers in Erik Morales, Barrera, Marquez and De La Hoya including a staggering 4 knockouts. He's won belts in I believe 4 divisions and been considered the champ in about 6. He's won fights in three different divisions in 2008 alone winning two world titles and beating the world's most popular and well known fighter, a 6 weight champ by knockout and he moved up two weight classes to do it.

Under any criteria you want to analyse by Manny IS the best fighter in the world on merit right now. Nobody else can rival him.

Then when you consider the other placings, although we can all disagree about exact placings every fighter clearly deserves, based on their acomplishments to be ranked where they are.

I have no idea what moving up or down a weight class has to do with it other than that by winning in another weight class and beating another world champ the winner adds to their acomplishments.

Manny beat Oscar so his reputation increases, if he would have lost his reputation would have decreased, or considering he was expected to lose anyway basically stayed the same. But he did what very few thought he could, he beat Oscar, and not just beat him but beat him up.

Therefore he's even more the p4p number 1 in the world now.

If he fights again at welter and loses he won't be p4p number 1 most likely becuase he won't be acomplishing as much.

Kind of like James Toney, who whilst clearly one of the 10 best fighters in the world in the early part of this millenium wasn't ranked p4p because he had moved to heavyweight and clearly, based on results, wasn't doing so well there.

To be honest I think he still desereved a spot after beating Holyfield and Ruiz because his performances were amazing, but as a heavyweight he wasn't rated, a cruel oversight in my view.

I would like to state that I am talking about the James Toney up until a couple years ago at least, not the obese, slow, blubbery mess of a man we see nowadays

But in short Manny IS p4p number 1 now. If he fights Ricky and loses, or Floyd and loses, or Margarito and loses, he won't be p4p 1 any more but until he loses of course he is