+ Top 10 P4P from 135 and below +

[Julius Rain]

Alright with so many brilliant matchups coming up in the lower weight classes I started thinking how P4P list would look minus the bigger guys.

So with that in mind here's my list.

1. JMM
2. Izzy
3. Rafa
4. Calderon
5. Vic
6. Caballero
7. Nonito
8. Nate
9. Joan
10. Montiel

Honors: JuanMa, Solis, Hasegawa, Moreno, Mijares.


A few things.
- I refuse to list John until he fights someone else with credibility I refuse to accept any excuses. I also think JMM beat him in the fight.
- Nonito although he holds a win over Vic, Vic wasn't P4P when Nonito beat him so you cant use that as a reason.
- The 1st 6 were easy to list it was the last 4 that I had to really move around.

I dont know mick, just cause vic beat mijares his above nonito and now a p4pder? I know vic dominated mijares but IMO if nonito and vic fought again. vic wouldn't win a single round again and would get knocked out again. I think both Nonito and Montiel are above vic. As good as we think Mijares is, we still gotta consider how good Nonito and MOntiel is too. If Mijares was clearly the superior fighter over Nonito and MOntiel then yea I may agree with you. Mijares is not though and has not proven much except his win over arce who I think is as overrated as vic is. IMO the nonito montiel showdown is the biggest match below 130 since rafa izzy 3.

His my list:

1.JMM (no need to explain)

2.Izzy (no need to explain)

3.Rafa (he came up in weight and beat izzy but lost the next two against izzy. he still neck and neck with izzy though IMO)

4.Calderon (still undefeated and is likely to retire undefeated)

5.Nonito - (Lost his second pro fight but has been perfect since then, inactive for a while lately but has ko'ed his last 4 oppenents. Including a dominating performance over Vic Darchinyan)

6.Montiel (With the defeat of Mijares, IMO Montiel is now the best match and toughest oppenent for NOnito)

7. Solis (this is the guy that is likely to be the reason while calderon wont retire undefeated.)

8. Vic (coming off a great win over Mijares, but IMO that just proves we overrated Mijares a bit after his win over arce. It does not mean Vic is suddenly super vic and we should disregard nonitos win over vic and montiels career as well)

9. Guzman (Not a fan of him but he do have talent, he just not handling his career wisely)

10. John (Just like Guzman, Im not a fan of his but he is a talent that is not being presented well worldwide.)



About Mijares, I like him a lot ever since his win over Arce and his ko win over sasakul but he was dominated by Vic and does have a total of 4 defeats. Plus His biggest win is over a guy I believe is overrated (Arce)

Nate, Juanma is just outside top 10 for me. I like Nate but his only big win lately is against Diaz, Diaz isn't exactly a p4p talent. Juanma like Nate doesn't really hold big win over a p4p talent. I have faith in Juanma though to break into top 10 p4p in the future.

[Violent Demise]

1- Juan Manuel Marquez
2- Israel Vazquez
3- Rafael Marquez
4- Fernando Montiel
5- Ulises Solis
6- Ivan Calderon
7- Nonito Donaire
8- Vic Darchinyan
9- Celestino Caballero
10- Hozumi Hasegawa

[CutMeMick]

- Nonito although he holds a win over Vic, Vic wasn't P4P when Nonito beat him so you cant use that as a reason.
- Vic beat a P4P fighter in Mijares so he goes above.

I dont know mick, just cause vic beat mijares his above nonito and now a p4pder? I know vic dominated mijares but IMO if nonito and vic fought again. vic wouldn't win a single round again and would get knocked out again. I think both Nonito and Montiel are above vic. As good as we think Mijares is, we still gotta consider how good Nonito and MOntiel is too. If Mijares was clearly the superior fighter over Nonito and MOntiel then yea I may agree with you. Mijares is not though and has not proven much except his win over arce who I think is as overrated as vic is. IMO the nonito montiel showdown is the biggest match below 130 since rafa izzy 3.

See above...
If you honestly feel Mijares was being overrated then by any means feel that way. But I can tell you he's not.
Every dog has it's day and that's how I see that fight.
The same way Vic was sparked out, now Mijares was.
Then one day someone will come along and beat Nonito.
Mijares had a shitty day but hey at least it came to the hands of someone like Vic who seems to be wrecking havoc as of late.
He's beat Gorres (in my book), Kirilov & Mijares.
Nonito might be better then Vic & Mijares and who knows even better then Montiel.
My point is Mijares was P4P top 10 when he was beat by Vic.
When Nonito beat Vic, Vic was no where near P4P.

When compiling the list I looked at Nonitos resume and his inactivity plus opposition hurt him compared to the rest. I just didn't look at skills.

If I put Nonito above Vic, then that would mean I'd have to list Ricardo Cordoba who holds a win over Caballero and is now a title holder. But again I can't cause the win over Caballero came yrs. ago before Caballero was rated this high.

[Julius Rain]

- Nonito although he holds a win over Vic, Vic wasn't P4P when Nonito beat him so you cant use that as a reason.
- Vic beat a P4P fighter in Mijares so he goes above.

I dont know mick, just cause vic beat mijares his above nonito and now a p4pder? I know vic dominated mijares but IMO if nonito and vic fought again. vic wouldn't win a single round again and would get knocked out again. I think both Nonito and Montiel are above vic. As good as we think Mijares is, we still gotta consider how good Nonito and MOntiel is too. If Mijares was clearly the superior fighter over Nonito and MOntiel then yea I may agree with you. Mijares is not though and has not proven much except his win over arce who I think is as overrated as vic is. IMO the nonito montiel showdown is the biggest match below 130 since rafa izzy 3.

See above...
If you honestly feel Mijares was being overrated then by any means feel that way. But I can tell you he's not.
Every dog has it's day and that's how I see that fight.
The same way Vic was sparked out, now Mijares was.
Then one day someone will come along and beat Nonito.
Mijares had a shitty day but hey at least it came to the hands of someone like Vic who seems to be wrecking havoc as of late.
He's beat Gorres (in my book), Kirilov & Mijares.
Nonito might be better then Vic & Mijares and who knows even better then Montiel.
My point is Mijares was P4P top 10 when he was beat by Vic.
When Nonito beat Vic, Vic was no where near P4P.

When compiling the list I looked at Nonitos resume and his inactivity plus opposition hurt him compared to the rest. I just didn't look at skills.

If I put Nonito above Vic, then that would mean I'd have to list Ricardo Cordoba who holds a win over Caballero and is now a title holder. But again I can't cause the win over Caballero came yrs. ago before Caballero was rated this high.

mick i guess you made your list according to recent accomplishments plus career resume? Your not considering who would beat who?

I know the list consist of different ideas to who is p4p better, but isn't it true the first thing that comes to mind when it is said who is better p4p the first idea that sparks is who will beat who? thats how i base my list on for the most part. Its really hard to put vic above nonito unless he avenges his lost. right? its like, to be the man you gotta beat the man. Sure nonito hasn't been that active, well not as active as vic. Big ups to vic he has travel everywhere to fight. I respect that a lot, and his win over mijares.

Mick can you explain to me why Mijares is top ten at the time? according to how you make the list, Mijares must of had some great win over recent great fighter? I would of put him as a top p4p base on his talent more so then his accomplishment.

Back to Nonito, his 5th round k.o win over Vic is far more signifiant then any recent Mijares win. Whats your perspective on that?

Nonito and Montiel IMO are the most talented and IMO would win over the names below them in my p4p list. Aint that the whole idea of making the list?

I'll be honest with you, I was high on Mijares too when he beat Arce. However he perform poorly against Vic and theres no excuse for that really. Credit to Vic but IMO he can not be rank higher then Nonito, unless nonito really started sluffing but Nonito has been winning impressively via tko's even though he hasn't been active. Can't really blame him for his inactivity though, his had problems. The guy doesn't even have a Coach at the moment.

[CutMeMick]

mick i guess you made your list according to recent accomplishments plus career resume? Your not considering who would beat who?

Right...
It's a handful of things I look at but who beat who is NOT the only thing I take into consideration.
Yes Nonito beat Vic and that's great but it solely does not make him higher on a P4P list for me.

"Maestrito" Cordoba holds a win over Caballero, he's now a title holder does that mean because he beat Caballero he should be rated above him?
I personally don't think it should be that way...

I know the list consist of different ideas to who is p4p better, but isn't it true the first thing that comes to mind when it is said who is better p4p the first idea that sparks is who will beat who? thats how i base my list on for the most part. Its really hard to put vic above nonito unless he avenges his lost. right? its like, to be the man you gotta beat the man. Sure nonito hasn't been that active, well not as active as vic. Big ups to vic he has travel everywhere to fight. I respect that a lot, and his win over mijares.

As honest as I can be with you JR, the 1st thing that comes to mind for me is skills.
Who beat's who can be a fucken coin toss at times and it with some luck on your side...
But skills, man. You can't deny them. Skills are there you can see them in the fights. I tend to lean to skills 1st.

Mick can you explain to me why Mijares is top ten at the time? according to how you make the list, Mijares must of had some great win over recent great fighter? I would of put him as a top p4p base on his talent more so then his accomplishment.

At the time Vic beat Mijares I believe (I) and also some places like Ring Mag. had Mijares top 10 P4P. Having become the 1st unfied champ since Johnny Tapia when he defeated Danny Romero.
Mijares beat a top caliber champ in Alexander Munoz. Not a great fighter because I never said "great" nore have I even typed the word "great" in any of my previous post so don't throw words in...
In today there are a few selected active fighters who are already ATG.
But for a current P4P list all you need is TOP guys like #1, #2 or #3 guys.

The skills are there and there's no denying that, he fought the wrong fight vs. Vic and he payed the price. But Mijares is def. a skilled fighter. He was P4P because he beat #2 guy in his division and picked up his 2nd title.
If you think Arce is overrated I can respect that but the guy hasn't been fighting and wining since 1999 just becase he's an OK fighter.
He was beating Carbajal the whole way through until he got really careless in the ring. Arces fought the whos who of the little guys and if it wasn't for the WBC and Pongsaklek with their bullshit he would have beaten him too. Mijares has also beaten Kawashima twice, Jose Navarro and Sasakul.
So when you add the skills, oppostion, titles and you look at it all around he was TOP 10, P4P.

Back to Nonito, his 5th round k.o win over Vic is far more signifiant then any recent Mijares win. Whats your perspective on that?

Yes, I agree which is why Nonitos rated top 10 on this list and Mijares makes my honor mentions plus the fact that he lost.
And again the win is impressive and if you look back I've said so myself but that win alone does not give you a spot on my list. I need more then that.

I'll be honest with you, I was high on Mijares too when he beat Arce. However he perform poorly against Vic and theres no excuse for that really. Credit to Vic but IMO he can not be rank higher then Nonito, unless nonito really started sluffing but Nonito has been winning impressively via tko's even though he hasn't been active. Can't really blame him for his inactivity though, his had problems. The guy doesn't even have a Coach at the moment.

That's what I'm saying the inactivity plus the quality of opposition has hurt Nonito.

My P4P lists if you come across any you clearly see me state that it's all around based.
It's not just a Fighter A beats Fighter B.
I like to do them all around involving other elements because again who beats who can be and is very subjective.
You say Nonito beats Montiel.
I say Montiels beats Nonito.
Whos right you or me?

The way I do it is...
Who wins? Nonito wins, Montiel wins. = Even.
Skills: Montiels more skilled, Nonito = Nonito
Titles: Montiels holds the WBO title, Nonitos the unified champ. = Nonito
Opp: Montiels got better oppostions, Nonitos got better opp. = Montiel
Wins vs. Loses: Montiel, Nonito = Nonito.

Which is why I have Nonito rated higher...
It's the way I've always done my lists based by an all around look at the career.

[Julius Rain]

Excellent reply mick, i respect that. These list are always endless to debate

[CutMeMick]

Excellent reply mick, i respect that. These list are always endless to debate

You telling me excellent reply...
I had to lay down and take a quick break when I 1st read your reply.
My brain started going in different directions with comments.
I had to relax and think it through before replying to your comment.

Good stuff JR enjoyed breaking my head there thinking it through.

[Violent Demise]

The way I do it is...
Who wins? Nonito wins, Montiel wins. = Even.
Skills: Montiels more skilled, Nonito = Nonito
Titles: Montiels holds the WBO title, Nonitos the unified champ. = Nonito
Opp: Montiels got better oppostions, Nonitos got better opp. = Montiel
Wins vs. Loses: Montiel, Nonito = Nonito.

Which is why I have Nonito rated higher...
It's the way I've always done my lists based by an all around look at the career.

So much wrong with this. How can you say Donaire is more skilled than Montiel? That's just laughable. Montiel was a brilliant boxer coming up. Now he's turning into a straight seek and destroy fighter. He can do it all. Donaire is skilled, no doubt. But not as much as Montiel. Montiel holds a WBO title. Donaire a IBF. Both crap titles. How the fukk you got Donaire being a unified champ is beyound me. As for W/L Montiel s losses. One by MD and the other by SD. Both of them and that bullshitt draw should of been wins for him. Donaire got 1 loss. Nobody ever seen it. So nobody can say it wasn't legit.

[CutMeMick]

The way I do it is...
Who wins? Nonito wins, Montiel wins. = Even.
Skills: Montiels more skilled, Nonito = Nonito
Titles: Montiels holds the WBO title, Nonitos the unified champ. = Nonito
Opp: Montiels got better oppostions, Nonitos got better opp. = Montiel
Wins vs. Loses: Montiel, Nonito = Nonito.

Which is why I have Nonito rated higher...
It's the way I've always done my lists based by an all around look at the career.

So much wrong with this. How can you say Donaire is more skilled than Montiel? That's just laughable. Montiel was a brilliant boxer coming up. Now he's turning into a straight seek and destroy fighter. He can do it all. Donaire is skilled, no doubt. But not as much as Montiel. Montiel holds a WBO title. Donaire a IBF. Both crap titles. How the fukk you got Donaire being a unified champ is beyound me. As for W/L Montiel s losses. One by MD and the other by SD. Both of them and that bullshitt draw should of been wins for him. Donaire got 1 loss. Nobody ever seen it. So nobody can say it wasn't legit.

For the record it was me who did it not JR...

You are right I thought Nonito had the WBO title that was my mistake it's the IBO. So I do have that wrong.

Now I never said this the RIGHT way to make a P4P list.
I said this is the way I do my P4P lists.

I do give the slight advantage to Nonito on the skills dept. just slightly because I feel Nonito has better handspeed and better foot movement. Everything else I feel they are even so for me advantage goes to Nonito just slightly.

I think the fact that Nonitos clearly #1 in his div. compared to Montiel whos either #1 or #2 in his div. gives him the edge because of the titles each holds.

I agree the loses were close at least I think they were. He gave Jhonny a brilliant fight giving up a lot of advantages.

As I said in my original post:
"- The 1st 6 were easy to list it was the last 4 that I had to really move around."

I mean look at Joan Guzman far more skilled then some guys above him but his lack of inactivity plus his last opponent kicks him down.
I think with Montiel his last 2 opponents put him down for me I could have been really hard on him.

I mean looking at your list I cant see how "Archi" Solis is rated that high then again I'm not sure how you came up with your list.
But regardless I still can't see him P4P better then Calderon.

[Violent Demise]

The way I do it is...
Who wins? Nonito wins, Montiel wins. = Even.
Skills: Montiels more skilled, Nonito = Nonito
Titles: Montiels holds the WBO title, Nonitos the unified champ. = Nonito
Opp: Montiels got better oppostions, Nonitos got better opp. = Montiel
Wins vs. Loses: Montiel, Nonito = Nonito.

Which is why I have Nonito rated higher...
It's the way I've always done my lists based by an all around look at the career.

So much wrong with this. How can you say Donaire is more skilled than Montiel? That's just laughable. Montiel was a brilliant boxer coming up. Now he's turning into a straight seek and destroy fighter. He can do it all. Donaire is skilled, no doubt. But not as much as Montiel. Montiel holds a WBO title. Donaire a IBF. Both crap titles. How the fukk you got Donaire being a unified champ is beyound me. As for W/L Montiel s losses. One by MD and the other by SD. Both of them and that bullshitt draw should of been wins for him. Donaire got 1 loss. Nobody ever seen it. So nobody can say it wasn't legit.

For the record it was me who did it not JR...

You are right I thought Nonito had the WBO title that was my mistake it's the IBO. So I do have that wrong.

Now I never said this the RIGHT way to make a P4P list.
I said this is the way I do my P4P lists.

I do give the slight advantage to Nonito on the skills dept. just slightly because I feel Nonito has better handspeed and better foot movement. Everything else I feel they are even so for me advantage goes to Nonito just slightly.

I think the fact that Nonitos clearly #1 in his div. compared to Montiel whos either #1 or #2 in his div. gives him the edge because of the titles each holds.

I agree the loses were close at least I think they were. He gave Jhonny a brilliant fight giving up a lot of advantages.

As I said in my original post:
"- The 1st 6 were easy to list it was the last 4 that I had to really move around."

I mean look at Joan Guzman far more skilled then some guys above him but his lack of inactivity plus his last opponent kicks him down.
I think with Montiel his last 2 opponents put him down for me I could have been really hard on him.

I mean looking at your list I cant see how "Archi" Solis is rated that high then again I'm not sure how you came up with your list.
But regardless I still can't see him P4P better then Calderon.

Montiel last 2 opponents were Rosas and Maldonado. Rosas was just a stay busy fight outside his weight class. Maldonado is a decent fighter. Montiel just straight destroyed him. Donaire last 2 opponents were the obscure Soth African Mthalane and the same Maldonado, Montiel faced. I don't see much difference other than Mthalane record I guess is more padded than Rosas. So I don't see why Montiel can be penalize for that.

I been studying Solis fights a lot recently. Which is why I rate him so highly. I like what I see. After watching his draw with Saldado and his loss to Dieppa I feel they should of been wins. So he really should be undefeated. His resume I feel is also better than Calderon's. Calderon I feel lost the first fight to Cazares and looked terrible and was lucky to get the win against Esquer. Calderon I feel is a lost waiting to happen. I see him losing very soon. Especially if he fights Solis