----- Obama Wins ------

[CGM]

So CGM, by your own rational you have given a pass to W for Iraq ...."Spreading Democracy" a good cause for a dumb move. Iraq and Somalia and Vietnam and Bay of Pigs and all other failures of the Presidents past and present were usually "Good thoughts but dumb ideas"....it's nice to think that everyone looks to the US and says "damn they are cool, I want to be just like them" but it's not the case especially in the poor countries who when we pay attention to them think we want something from them....which we usually do but still attention is attention.

CFH, I thought Liberals weren't supposed to "HATE"....that's bad mojo

I don't see how your remarks about spreading democracy have anything to do with what I was talking about with Somalia. I told you what I thought it was about, and where maybe Clinton went wrong. You raised SOmalia as an example of Bush not the only one who screwed up. But I still have no idea what you think Clinton should have done in that situation.

[El Kabong]

Well if I pick an option on Somalia it will be with hindsight which is unfair of course. The UN is a completely worthless organization, it expects everyone to get the same say as the US but it's forces are nothing without US support and seeing what they have done in the past makes me believe counting on them to stand up for what is good and right is naive.

It is my belief that because of economic and political tampering that African nations are hard pressed to develop any true democratic or even republican forms of government. That being said, I would have sent Red Cross aid and if it got intercepted then so be it....no use in trying to build a nation from scratch, infact that usually sets their own process back. If the Somali people needed help and were organized and wanted a strong government of their own and to oust the warlords then it's their job to get the ball rolling on that and not ours.

It sounds very cold blooded and heartless but America didn't get MUCH help in acheiving freedom from England....France showed up late but the war was basically over by then.

The US has installed dictators in many places and that would have been my second choice just to develop some infastructure and maybe try and create some feeling of nationalism in the Somali people but again when it gets down to it, if it's not affecting the US economy or policies then it's the job of the Somali people to do what is right for themselves.


Basically my whole point on bringing up past failures of the Presidents is that #1 No matter what choice you can make as President you're going to piss SOMEBODY off #2 Even in hindsight you can't be right AND make everyone happy at the same time and #3 You have to pick your battles....Somalia wouldn't have been one of mine, neither would Bosnia or Sarejevo. BIG wars start in the Balkans, we got LUCKY in the mid to late 90's

[CGM]

OK Lyle, so be it, then. Myself, I'd like to think that if hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake, that someone with the ability to do something actually does do something.

Another case in point is Rwanda. UN reps knew there would be mass bloodshed, but got no help from Kofi Annan, or anyone. As soon as the going got tough, the tough flew the coop. A measely little UN force with no power or authority to do anything was left behind. Of course there were some nations that did absolutely nothing. The US for example, because of the Somalia experience, did not want to get burned in Rwanda. As a result we had a slaughter with hundreds of thousands of casualties.

What good is the UN if it can't/wont respond to shit like this? I really had a poor view of the UN because of Rwanda. You also have a poor view of the UN, but for a different reason it seems.

[El Kabong]

The UN isn't worth a damn....they want every country to feel as though they are the equal to that of the US or China or Russia or England but it simply isn't the case AND their forces aren't anything without US support. It's just ridiculous to have an organization which is built on putting down big nations and yet can't run without the help of big nations. Darfur is another good example of the UN not being worth a shit. The United Nations is a sham, it doesn't really end up helping the people who really need it.

Kofi Annan is a criminal! Food for Oil my ass!!!! He is just your basic run of the mill political thug.

The US can't act alone in these situations, we just can't. Everyone judges the US whenever we move and it seems more and more people want to believe that the US has a negative influence on anyone and everyone and that is simply not the case (the majority of the time)....we're not ALWAYS right but we're not ALWAYS wrong either. The US is in a bad position because we try to be the good guy...as opposed to Russia and China who never even pretend to be the good guys