Damn! Roberto Alomar has AIDS?

[CGM]

No disputes. Sandberg was great. So was Morgan. But I think Alomar had a small but clear advantage when you combine both offence and defense. Let's not forget those gold gloves. He lags in longevity though. I have no idea how many gold gloves a guy like Sandberg has, probably a few. But yeah, you are right that you can't call Alomar the flat out greatest, he has tough competition.

Your stats, clearly you mean hits and not HR.

I know, let's start an argument over whether or not Cal Ripkin was overated as a shortstop. I say yes, without the streak, he'd probably be above average, but not an ATG.

[El Kabong]

I listed hits AND homeruns...the number for each is found just to the right of the stat.

Sandberg had 10 (consecutive) All-Star Apperances, 9 (consecutive) Gold Gloves....he got beat out in 1992 by Jose Lind...Sandberg had a .990 fielding% that year.

I think when you consider the steroid era and if you assume Cal wasn't a part of it then I think you have to consider him up there as an All-Time Great.


You should see the stats on Hornsby, Lajoie, and Collins.

[CGM]

OK. But I don't follow your steroid remark. I didn't read the entire thread, but are you saying there was some steroid suspicions on Alomar?

[El Kabong]

OK. But I don't follow your steroid remark. I didn't read the entire thread, but are you saying there was some steroid suspicions on Alomar?

It has been said that Toronto was a steroid hub, much like Oakland. Also in the era of the late 1980's up to present day I guess....EVERYONE'S numbers will be questioned, I think until baseball finds a sympathetic figure (maybe A-Rod) that has used steroids to forgive then I think it's going to be difficult for most HoF calibre players to get in. I still have my doubts about Rickey Henderson being 100% natural...I like the guy but I have a suspision about him because he played on the same team as McGwire and Canseco and nobody was faster and he could hit HR's like nobody's business.

At LEAST the Hirschbeck incident pushes Robbie enshrinement back a year or more because the voters are a fickle group.

[CGM]

OK. But I don't follow your steroid remark. I didn't read the entire thread, but are you saying there was some steroid suspicions on Alomar?

It has been said that Toronto was a steroid hub, much like Oakland. Also in the era of the late 1980's up to present day I guess....EVERYONE'S numbers will be questioned, I think until baseball finds a sympathetic figure (maybe A-Rod) that has used steroids to forgive then I think it's going to be difficult for most HoF calibre players to get in. I still have my doubts about Rickey Henderson being 100% natural...I like the guy but I have a suspision about him because he played on the same team as McGwire and Canseco and nobody was faster and he could hit HR's like nobody's business.

At LEAST the Hirschbeck incident pushes Robbie enshrinement back a year or more because the voters are a fickle group.

hmmm, didn't know about any Toronto = Steroid Club remarks. They had one or two implicated users that I am aware of, like many teams did, but I don't know that they were worse than anyone else. But if you have evidence to the contrary, then lets see it.

[El Kabong]

I believe Brian MacNamee worked in Toronto which is where he and Clemens met. I could be wrong about that though. Joe Torre also wrote about Toronto in his new book.

In Torre book, trainer says some Jays used drugs


But my main point was just on the era as a whole...everyone now basically has to prove they WEREN'T juicing and even then people will question the numbers....don't you?

BTW George Bell was one of my favorite players growing up as was Tony Fernandez

[CGM]

Yeah, Bell was tough, great bat but not the best fielder we ever had. Fernandez was so smooth. And a very good hitter. He had some serious injuries, notably a broken elbow on his throwing arm because of some shitty artificial turf at the old stadium. Fred McGriff was another guy I liked, He could really crush a baseball. Dave Stieb putting down 26 in a row against the Yankees was something to remember. Saw that game on TV. Damn Roberto Kelly!

I tell you I have never seen anything like the party that hit Toronto after the second World Series in '93. So many people poured into downtown after the win at home, it had to be seen to be believed. Wall to wall people all the way down Yonge Street.