Damn! Roberto Alomar has AIDS?

[El Kabong]

OK let's compare Alomar to a couple of good 2nd basemen no one hands down great like Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, or Eddie Collins but some more recent guys. I think his attitude and the STEROID ERA stigma might hamper him getting in but maybe you guys have a point....I'm willing to compare stats

Ryne Sandberg
Avg: .285 Hits: 2,386 HR: 282 RBI: 1,061 SB: 344 Fielding%: .989

Joe Morgan
Avg: .271 Hits: 2,517 HR: 268 RBI: 1,133 SB: 689 Fielding%: .981

Jeff Kent
Avg: .290 Hits: 2,461 HR: 377 RBI: 1,518 SB: 94 Fielding%: .980 (as 2B)

Lou Whittaker
Avg: .276 Hits: 2,369 HR: 244 RBI: 1,084 SB: 143 Fielding%: .984

Roberto Alomar
Avg: .300 Hits: 2,724 HR: 210 RBI: 1,124 SB: 474 Fielding%: .986

So Robbie is up there with these guys but alas he isn't the all out greatest he has ok numbers but like I said Steroid Era + Hirschbeck incident might hurt him.

[CGM]

No disputes. Sandberg was great. So was Morgan. But I think Alomar had a small but clear advantage when you combine both offence and defense. Let's not forget those gold gloves. He lags in longevity though. I have no idea how many gold gloves a guy like Sandberg has, probably a few. But yeah, you are right that you can't call Alomar the flat out greatest, he has tough competition.

Your stats, clearly you mean hits and not HR.

I know, let's start an argument over whether or not Cal Ripkin was overated as a shortstop. I say yes, without the streak, he'd probably be above average, but not an ATG.

[El Kabong]

I listed hits AND homeruns...the number for each is found just to the right of the stat.

Sandberg had 10 (consecutive) All-Star Apperances, 9 (consecutive) Gold Gloves....he got beat out in 1992 by Jose Lind...Sandberg had a .990 fielding% that year.

I think when you consider the steroid era and if you assume Cal wasn't a part of it then I think you have to consider him up there as an All-Time Great.


You should see the stats on Hornsby, Lajoie, and Collins.

[CGM]

OK. But I don't follow your steroid remark. I didn't read the entire thread, but are you saying there was some steroid suspicions on Alomar?

[Von Milash]

I can understand someone thinking Alomar is a comlete dick, no problem there, but he was awesome for a lot of years, and very popular before that dustup with the umpire. but there's no doubting Alomar's skills. I'm not sure I've seen a better second baseman.

Exactly. Not too many, in fact none, that I can say definitively "He was better than Robbie."

But I will agree with Lyle in one thing.... I'm not so sure he goes to Cooperstown. Despite his numbers, the guy will always be remembered for the wrong reason. It COULD impact the voting in this sense "fuck him. I vote no."

[El Kabong]

OK. But I don't follow your steroid remark. I didn't read the entire thread, but are you saying there was some steroid suspicions on Alomar?

It has been said that Toronto was a steroid hub, much like Oakland. Also in the era of the late 1980's up to present day I guess....EVERYONE'S numbers will be questioned, I think until baseball finds a sympathetic figure (maybe A-Rod) that has used steroids to forgive then I think it's going to be difficult for most HoF calibre players to get in. I still have my doubts about Rickey Henderson being 100% natural...I like the guy but I have a suspision about him because he played on the same team as McGwire and Canseco and nobody was faster and he could hit HR's like nobody's business.

At LEAST the Hirschbeck incident pushes Robbie enshrinement back a year or more because the voters are a fickle group.

[CGM]

OK. But I don't follow your steroid remark. I didn't read the entire thread, but are you saying there was some steroid suspicions on Alomar?

It has been said that Toronto was a steroid hub, much like Oakland. Also in the era of the late 1980's up to present day I guess....EVERYONE'S numbers will be questioned, I think until baseball finds a sympathetic figure (maybe A-Rod) that has used steroids to forgive then I think it's going to be difficult for most HoF calibre players to get in. I still have my doubts about Rickey Henderson being 100% natural...I like the guy but I have a suspision about him because he played on the same team as McGwire and Canseco and nobody was faster and he could hit HR's like nobody's business.

At LEAST the Hirschbeck incident pushes Robbie enshrinement back a year or more because the voters are a fickle group.

hmmm, didn't know about any Toronto = Steroid Club remarks. They had one or two implicated users that I am aware of, like many teams did, but I don't know that they were worse than anyone else. But if you have evidence to the contrary, then lets see it.

[El Kabong]

I believe Brian MacNamee worked in Toronto which is where he and Clemens met. I could be wrong about that though. Joe Torre also wrote about Toronto in his new book.

In Torre book, trainer says some Jays used drugs


But my main point was just on the era as a whole...everyone now basically has to prove they WEREN'T juicing and even then people will question the numbers....don't you?

BTW George Bell was one of my favorite players growing up as was Tony Fernandez

[CGM]

Yeah, Bell was tough, great bat but not the best fielder we ever had. Fernandez was so smooth. And a very good hitter. He had some serious injuries, notably a broken elbow on his throwing arm because of some shitty artificial turf at the old stadium. Fred McGriff was another guy I liked, He could really crush a baseball. Dave Stieb putting down 26 in a row against the Yankees was something to remember. Saw that game on TV. Damn Roberto Kelly!

I tell you I have never seen anything like the party that hit Toronto after the second World Series in '93. So many people poured into downtown after the win at home, it had to be seen to be believed. Wall to wall people all the way down Yonge Street.

[El Kabong]

Of course I am a lifelong Red Sox fan but I appreciated a lot of the Blue Jays players.....most noteably the guys who came around to help the Red Sox: David Cone, Mike Timlin, etc....but I ALWAYS wanted Tony Fernandez to play SS and turn the double play with Marty Barrett and later Jody Reed.

[CGM]

General Manager Pat Gillick was the true brains behind the Jays. They had a damn good run of +.500 seasons, culminating in several division championships the last two being of course the world series victories. He left the team after the 2nd series, and things were never the same.

Yeah Lyle, I do remember Toronto doing a number on the Red Sox, seems to me for a while, I forget exactly when, there was a very long streak where Boston couldn't buy a win against the Jays, including games where the Jays would come back from a huge deficits to win in the ninth.

You know who was absolutely awesome for the Jays for a couple years was Roger Clemens, right after he left Boston. Consecutive 20+ win seasons, ERA down below 2.0, two Cy Youngs, Off the top of my head I'm not sure what his strikeout stats were, but I'm sure they were good. Then he left the team halfway through his contract, cause he didn't think we could win a series.

[Violent Demise]

You on your own here Lyle. Alomar is a 12 time all star. 10 time gold glove winner. He also has won 4 silver slugger awards. He's a future hall of famer. How can you not rate him but rate a scrub like Tom Herr?

Alomar is NOT getting in the Hall....end of discussion!


OK Vizquel is one of the FEW players who can get in the Hall based solely on defense. He has better stas than Ozzie fielding but I would take any number of SS over Vizquel

LOL. Alomar is getting in. That I have no doubt of.

[JT Rock]

To me no player is off limits as far as considering if they did roinds or not, to the point I gotta wonder if Cal Ripken wasnt taking something his last few years leading up to the record

[El Kabong]

To me no player is off limits as far as considering if they did roinds or not, to the point I gotta wonder if Cal Ripken wasnt taking something his last few years leading up to the record

Oh yeah, that's why I brought up Rickey Henderson....I like the guy but he was SO GOOD I just wonder about him considering his teammates in Oakland.

Also Cal Ripken's buddy Brady Anderson IMO was a juicer....50 HR's in 1996 which was 26 more homers than he hit in any other season.


Matt Williams has to be looked at too....good 3B but I am not without my doubts about him

[JT Rock]

To me no player is off limits as far as considering if they did roinds or not, to the point I gotta wonder if Cal Ripken wasnt taking something his last few years leading up to the record

Oh yeah, that's why I brought up Rickey Henderson....I like the guy but he was SO GOOD I just wonder about him considering his teammates in Oakland.

Also Cal Ripken's buddy Brady Anderson IMO was a juicer....50 HR's in 1996 which was 26 more homers than he hit in any other season.


Matt Williams has to be looked at too....good 3B but I am not without my doubts about him

I'll talk more about this later when I have time. Guys like Cal Ripken,Tony Gwynn and Ricky Henderson are considered throwbacks, and the last crop of great quality player considered to be pure athlete before the steroid era, if any of those 3 were implicated or found to have any ties to PHD then baseball would be set back for many years and the damage would seemingly be irepairable to most bleeding heart windbag writers.

IMO this is far from over, you will see names like the above referenced 3 in the near future, and purists will have to recognize that PHD was part of an evolution process that help promote longevity and gaudy numbers that put asses in seats, everyone profitted from player, owners comissioner etc. and even the fan from an entertainment standpoint. Guys like Bonds will get less scrutinized as the years go by..

I for one are part of the ever growing majority who will follow baseball with the same enthusiasm,nostalgia and zeal that I always had... No matter what its a beautiful game whether a picture dominates a hitter blasts 80 home runs, I love it