When a ref says "TEN!"

[ClubberLang]

The thing that confused me was that Kellerman kept going on and on about Cintron's gloves being off the canvas before ten, and so the ref got the call right. Is there some rule that if the round ends you need only have your gloves off the canvas before ten to be considered "up"? If so, what the hell kind of rule is that? If not, what the hell was Kellerman talking about?

[Myk_Myk]

I'm not sure if it varies from state to state, but I think ultimately the ref has a lot of discretion as to what he wants to do as far as when the fight is actually over. The odd thing is that I've never before seen a ref wave off a fight-which it looks like he did in this fight-and then change his mind like the case the other night.

However, apparently a ref does have the prerogative to change his mind. I remember on FNF or WNF when Anthony Bonsante played opossum and the ref waved it off. Even though Bonsante jumped up after a 6 count and argued vehemently that his was fine, the ref didn't change his mind. Teddy kept saying that if the ref wanted to he could of retracted the waving off, and in light of Bonsante's obviously clear state, allowed the fight to continue. When they interviewed the ref later, he admitted that if he indeed could of chosen to change his mind and allow the fight to continue.

I've seen many times where it appeared that the ref was second guessing their decision to wave off a fight, but as I said I've never before seen a reversal. Even after that FNF incident, I always wondered if it was really legal. I still wonder as in this case there's the added controversy over whether Cintron was up at ten, and did or did not the ref wave it off?

[ClubberLang]

I'm not sure if it varies from state to state, but I think ultimately the ref has a lot of discretion as to what he wants to do as far as when the fight is actually over. The odd thing is that I've never before seen a ref wave off a fight-which it looks like he did in this fight-and then change his mind like the case the other night.

One thing I wondered is that maybe the ref didn't intend his hand gesture to be taken as the end of the fight, but an indication that the round was over and Martinez couldn't get anymore shots off. Most of the time when a ref waves off a fight, he'll demonstratively wag his arm back and forth. In this case, the ref only stuck his hand in the air and made no verbal signal that he was ending the fight. So, I guess it's possible he just meant to indicate the round was over. Who knows, though. Either way, Martinez should have gotten the win.

[Myk_Myk]

Yeah, when it's definitely over the ref usually waves both hands in a crossing inside to outside wave in front of the losing fighter. In this case he didn't really do that. Unfortunately, Cintron got a lot of extra time to recover do to his and his corners antics.

[RP33]

It was a very close call, but on TV they slowed it down and showed that his knee was off the ground before the ref said 10.

I mean, let's all thing logically here. Everyone put one knee on the ground, and say out loud, "ten". As you start the word, lift your knee off of the ground. OMG, you managed to lift your knee off of the ground before you finished saying ten.

Also, a lot of times when someone is counted out the full 10 count, they are almost always visibly unable to get up. If a fighter is on one knee, waits for the 8 count, plus 9 and gets up at the last second, I think that unless the fighter struggles to get up, then you should let him continue. It was so close to the point where Cintron clearly was able to get up, and did so.

I do think it was controversial though, because the ref hesitated before he said 10, but what can you do?

the standard procedure is to be up by 8 and even if he did make the count why the hell didnt the ref ask him to come forward with his gloves up just to make sure he was ready to fight rather than chuck his arms in the air.

Cintron was far from out of it but rules are rules and that should of been that with kermit getting counted out through sheer stupidity

"the standard procedure is to be up by 8".. No.. There is a standing 8 count, meaning if you get knocked down and get up on your feet at 3, the ref still counts to 8. There is no standard procedure for WHEN you are supposed to get up. You just have to beat the 10 count.

It almost seemed the ref was confused as to why he wasn't getting up, which is probably why he hesitated before he said 10. Either way in slow motion, it showed he beat the count.

The thing that confused me was that Kellerman kept going on and on about Cintron's gloves being off the canvas before ten, and so the ref got the call right. Is there some rule that if the round ends you need only have your gloves off the canvas before ten to be considered "up"? If so, what the hell kind of rule is that? If not, what the hell was Kellerman talking about?

It seemed Kellerman originally thought that only Cintrons gloves were on the ground. But eventually, i remember him saying that "only the soles of your feet can be on the ground". Listen to it again, he corrects himself.

[ClubberLang]

It seemed Kellerman originally thought that only Cintrons gloves were on the ground. But eventually, i remember him saying that "only the soles of your feet can be on the ground". Listen to it again, he corrects himself.

Fair enough, I missed the correction. Thanks for the info That had me scratching my head.

[Myk_Myk]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

[ClubberLang]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

[HattonTheHammer]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

As ive said cintron was more than stable enough to continue fighting but rules are rules and you cant just go around bending them to suit any given situation!!

[Myk_Myk]

Again, the ref apparently has discretion over that call. It seems in boxing that the ref is very rarely second guessed to the point of overturning their decisions. Perhaps that is partly why we don't have instant replay in boxing?

I do remember on FNF that a NC was changed to a TKO for Delvin Rodriguez, when (I believe) Teddy Atlas implored the NYSAC to look at the replays. They showed that the ref's original ruling of a head butt was erroneous, and that Keenan Collins' cut was caused by a punch. It didn't happen on the spot, but rather was later reviewed.

[NPwill]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

Bizarre night all around--- Round 7 being its zenith. I agree that Kerm, though hurt (he actually said "ow"-- not oomph, oof or ugh-- but "ow" and I don't think I ever heard that in a fight before) was likely sufficiently clearheaded, and it looked to me that he took a knee as Serg rushed (and his "bad" was arguing his mistaken belief that it was a head butt while on the canvas and the count ongoing and coming all too close to be counted out even if he wasn't "really" knocked-out.) That shouldn't have happened-- and I think its fair to call it a loss of composure. But he was up (not upright but on his feet-- and had more than just his gloves off the ground, which I think was Max's point) before 10.

So no knockout was properly called (and the rest of the chaos falls squarely on the ref's shoulders for not making his call clear to anyone-- not Kerm, not Serg or their corners/officials). People are calling Kerm lucky and have a point --- but since there was no knockout, it was the right call (though it took far too long to get there), and I really think long term Kerm's the unlucky one-- his rep is going to get (even more) shafted--- given the misperception that his "whining" got the ref to "change his mind" and "robbed" poor preening Serg (who didnt exactly look awesome on this evening either) of a "knockout" which he not only didn't earn in point of fact (since Kerm was up), but also when he likely didn't even hurt Kerm enough to say he "earned' such a KO (had Kerm NOT made the count, I would have attribtued the KO to Kerm's none too swift move in arguing his case on the canvas and not Serg's power (although it was a nice shot that caught Kerm)). If the ref makes the right call, Kerm stops "whining" and is sent back to the corner for a minute and comes out for round 8 and the "controversy" is avoided completely. Does Serg take him out? I doubt it- going back to the theory that Kerm wasn't in deep trouble to begin with.

But by the same token, I also truly believe that Kerm thought it was headbutt-both at the time and immediately after the fight. And, because of that subjective belief - though clearly mistaken--- I don't think his "I won that fight" comment in the aftermath is entirely obnoxious/outrageous as it has been portrayed. Think about it-- Kerm probably "saw" the fight along the same lines of the two judges who had it a draw. If he really thinks he was headbutted, and Serg was "given" a 10-8 round on what he believes to be an illiegtimately ruled knockdown-- I can see where Kerm THINKS he won the fight. (Not saying I saw it as a "draw" exactly, but given how almost nothing of true substance happened from either in many of the first 6 rounds, I don't think the draw outcome is quite as outrageous as it has been portrayed... but my bottom line is that Kerm was still fortunate).

And--- just to close the loop, by Thursday of this week, Kerm released a comment from Lou DiBella where he mans up and admits his mistake about the headbutt (a good move Kerm--we're still waiting for Margs to man up and admit to his intentional cheating), and no longer questions the outcome of the fight (which is really as far as he could go on that front).

Knowing what a good kid he is, I'm still a big time Kerm fan. I just wish he could somehow avoid all this "drama" and just focus on fighting, letting his hands go, improving his skills and getting better in the ring.

[ClubberLang]

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.

Bizarre night all around--- Round 7 being its zenith. I agree that Kerm, though hurt (he actually said "ow"-- not oomph, oof or ugh-- but "ow" I don't think I ever heard that in a fight before) and was likely sufficiently clearheaded and it looked to me that he took a knee as Serg rushed(and his "bad" was arguing his mistaken belief that it was a head butt while on the canvas and the count ongoing and coming all too close to be counted out even if he wasn't "really" knocked-out.) That shouldn't have happened-- and I think its fair to call it a loss of composure. But he was up (not upright but on his feet-- and had more than just his gloves off the ground which I think was Max's point) before 10.

So no knockout was properly called (and the rest of the chaos falls squarely on the ref's shoulders for not making his call clear to anyone-- not Kerm, not Serg or their corners/officials). People are calling Kerm lucky and have a point --- but since there was no knockout, Iand it was the right call (though it took far too long to get there), I really think long term Kerm's the unlucky one-- his rep is going to get (even more) shafted--- given the misperception that his "whining" got the ref to "change his mind" and "robbed" poor preening Serg (who didnt exactly look awesome on this evening either) of a "knockout" which he not only didn't earn in point of fact (since Kerm was up), but really didn't even hurt Kerm enough to say he "earned' (had Kerm NOT made the count, I would have attribtued the KO to Kerm's none too swift move in arguing his case on the canvas not Serg's power (although it was a nice shot that caught Kerm) If the ref makes the right call, Kerm stops "whining" and is sent back to the corner for a minute and comes out for round 8 and the "controversy" is avoided completely. Does Serg take him out? I doubt it- going back to the theory that Kerm wasn't in deep trouble to begin with.

But by the same token, I also truly believe that Kerm thought it was headbutt-both at the time and immediately after the fight. And, because of that subjective belief - though clearly mistaken--- I don't think his "I won that fight" comment in the aftermath is entirely obnoxious/outrageous as it has been portrayed. Think about it-- Kerm probably "saw" the fight along the same lines of the two judges who had it a draw. If he really thinks he was headbutted, and Serg was "given" a 10-8 round on what he believes to be an illiegtimately ruled knockdown-- I can see where Kerm THINKS he won the fight. (Not saying I saw it as a "draw" exactly, but given how almost nothing of true substance happened from either in many of the first 6 rounds, I don't think the draw outcome is quite as outrageous as it has been portrayed... but my bottom line is that Kerm was still fortunate).

And--- just to close the loop, by Thursday of this week, Kerm released a comment from Lou DiBella where he mans up and admit his mistake about the headbutt (a good move Kerm--we're still waiting for Margs to man up and admit to his intentional cheating), and no longer questions the outcome of the fight (which is really as far as he could go on that front).

Knowing what a good kid he is, I'm still a big time Kerm fan. I just wish he could somehow avoid all this "drama" and just focus on fighting, letting his hands go, improving his skills and getting better in the ring.

Unfortunately, Kermit has looked awful his last three fights and simply shows a lack of mental toughness and composure. The fact that he is being considered as Cotto's June opponent (assuming Cotto beats Jennings) after his last three bouts is ridiculous. He has done absolutely nothing to earn that kind of payday. Someone like Clottey is much more deserving.