ICB Where did you learn to play chess mate?

[CGM]

9...h5 might be played because Black wants to move the pawn away from the attack of the Queen, thus freeing up the rook. a subsequent ...h4 by black would prevent the knight from occupying h4 and thus controlling the square f5. Maybe black wants to push on to h3 with a view to weakening the White Kingside.

9....h5 is just a poor move imo, it's wasting time and allows white to play 10.b4 forcing Bb6 followed by a4 which in turn forces a6 then Nxb6 and the black queenside is wrecked.

Ok bud, I'm not so sure about that. Tell you what, we can put it to the test. I'll take the Black position after 9...h5. you send me your moves, and I'll keep this post up to date. I'll post a graphic of the chessbaord here, so if anyone is interested they can follow along. No need to rush through this, take your time, it may take a few days to get through this.

Here is the game so far.

White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5
10.b4 Bb6
11.a4 Nd4
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6
17.de de
18.Kh1 Qd4
19.Qe3 Qb6
20.Qc5

last update 13:05 GMT, 02/25/2009

OK, for those who are following the thread, Bilbo and I are playing out a position from brucelee's victory over his computer. Bilbo is playing brucelee's side, I am playing the computer's side. The first move to deviate from brucelee's game was 10.b4 by Bilbo.

White is up a pawn, and the Black king is a little vulnerable, which limits Black's options. Probably White has the advantage, but Black is not without resources.

Subsequent updates to the game will be made by editing this post, probably a couple more moves today.

Update: OK, we are calling this off. We discussed it and agree that 9...h5 is not a good move, at the very least not at this time. Sooner, or later, it's a different story that would have to be reconsidered.

[Kev]

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

I'm not talking about Nd5 after gxf6 I'm talking about the mainline after 7.Qxf6. Bruce was saying Qxf6 is the wrong move because white can follow up with 8.Nd5. I was just saying it's long been known to be inoffensive if black knows the main line.

[RP33]

I wouldn't know what to do next.. I'd sac queen for queen cause i'm sexist.

[CGM]

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

I'm not talking about Nd5 after gxf6 I'm talking about the mainline after 7.Qxf6. Bruce was saying Qxf6 is the wrong move because white can follow up with 8.Nd5. I was just saying it's long been known to be inoffensive if black knows the main line.

I stand corrected. Guiocco Piano is not exactly deep. Sure Black does OK if he knows the lines, but you can say that about a lot openings. Anyways, it's not totally inoffensive. In the main line after After 7...Qxf6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.c3 9.a6 10.d4 Ba7 there is play in the position, and White has over 60% winning percentage here, including a large number of games played at the international master level and above, which is not bad.

[brucelee]

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

I'm not talking about Nd5 after gxf6 I'm talking about the mainline after 7.Qxf6. Bruce was saying Qxf6 is the wrong move because white can follow up with 8.Nd5. I was just saying it's long been known to be inoffensive if black knows the main line.

This was my comment regarding 7. .... Qxf6

Using 7.... Qxf6 is not advisable because when Nc3 goes to d5, the Black queen will be forced to go back to d8. Besides, it's too early to use the queen. IMO.

In my point of view and explaining the move of the computer, Qxf6 may not be advisable. I did not say it was wrong. The canal variation of giuoco piano suggests Qxf6. The use of Qx6 is okay and is being used by grandmasters but in my humble opinion, black loses 2 moves with that move.

I was just explaining that the computer answered differently through 7.... gxf6 and it is without any reason. It was not a schoolboy's move as you have claimed it is.

For the record, I won against the computer because it chooses gxf6 but it is without merit. I won because after the 17th move, I saw already a win. By the 21st move, I know I will win after 5 moves.

You were quick to judge and you repetitively insulted my game with the computer that's why I have to defend the computer's move.

For the record, I did set the computer's level to Kasparov and whether its moves are questionable or not, that I can not say for sure. Personally, I don't see any problem with those moves.

Just like what I've told you before, my abilities and knowledge in chess have already eroded because of inactivity. I haven't played chess for years and that could explain my lack of deeper understanding.

I was simply presenting a game I've won against a computer when I was still good(not excellent!) in chess.

Peace.

[brucelee]

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.
17.de de
18.Kh1 Qd4
19.Qe3 Qb6

[CGM]

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.

I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

[RP33]

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.

I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

When is the next move in this game going to be made?.. you should have the board with the previous screenshot before you moved so that we can see what piece moved.. i'm intrigued now..

[CGM]

15 ed Bd7
16.0-0 Qb6

an alternative to this would be 16. ...... Rb8 for a possible move of b7-b5. Possible exchange of bishops so black can destroy the defense of white's bishop to his two pawns in d flank.

I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

When is the next move in this game going to be made?.. you should have the board with the previous screenshot before you moved so that we can see what piece moved.. i'm intrigued now..

We just move when we have time. Bilbo will probably move tomorrow sometime. Each time a move is made, the list and picture is updated. I made a few changes to the diagram, the arrow shows the last move, and also the co-ordinates are displayed. Better?

[RP33]

I see your point, you might be right, but I wanted to leave open the possibility of castling Queenside. At this point I do not want to open up the position more while my King is still in the center. For example, the game could go 16...Rb8 17.R(f)e1 b5 18.axb5 Bxb5 19.Rxa7 and it seems to me that Black has lost another pawn and weakened his position, and Black still has to worry about the safety of his King.

When is the next move in this game going to be made?.. you should have the board with the previous screenshot before you moved so that we can see what piece moved.. i'm intrigued now..

We just move when we have time. Bilbo will probably move tomorrow sometime. Each time a move is made, the list and picture is updated. I made a few changes to the diagram, the arrow shows the last move, and also the co-ordinates are displayed. Better?

absolutely.. rep for helping the slow kid.

[Kev]

I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.

I'm not talking about Nd5 after gxf6 I'm talking about the mainline after 7.Qxf6. Bruce was saying Qxf6 is the wrong move because white can follow up with 8.Nd5. I was just saying it's long been known to be inoffensive if black knows the main line.

This was my comment regarding 7. .... Qxf6

Using 7.... Qxf6 is not advisable because when Nc3 goes to d5, the Black queen will be forced to go back to d8. Besides, it's too early to use the queen. IMO.

In my point of view and explaining the move of the computer, Qxf6 may not be advisable. I did not say it was wrong. The canal variation of giuoco piano suggests Qxf6. The use of Qx6 is okay and is being used by grandmasters but in my humble opinion, black loses 2 moves with that move.

I was just explaining that the computer answered differently through 7.... gxf6 and it is without any reason. It was not a schoolboy's move as you have claimed it is.

For the record, I won against the computer because it chooses gxf6 but it is without merit. I won because after the 17th move, I saw already a win. By the 21st move, I know I will win after 5 moves.

You were quick to judge and you repetitively insulted my game with the computer that's why I have to defend the computer's move.

For the record, I did set the computer's level to Kasparov and whether its moves are questionable or not, that I can not say for sure. Personally, I don't see any problem with those moves.

Just like what I've told you before, my abilities and knowledge in chess have already eroded because of inactivity. I haven't played chess for years and that could explain my lack of deeper understanding.

I was simply presenting a game I've won against a computer when I was still good(not excellent!) in chess.

Peace.

Hey Bruce, sorry Bruce but you are simply incorrect here, Qxf6 is a better move. It doesn't matter that black wastes time by moving the queen twice, he hasn't damaged his pawn structure, his position is still very solid and there are no weaknesses to exploit.

And its not as if white has gained a big lead in development anyway, first off you traded off your bishop for a knight not usually a good idea early, and then you followed up by moving the knight for a second time so white hasn't really gained much.

I keep saying it's a schoolboy opening because the this guioco pianissmo line and especially the Canal variation is played extensively in junior chess. If you watch any Under 12's, Under 14 championshiop type games etc you'll see these openings all the time.

It's becuase the classical Italian game is considered the best way to learn about classical chess and therefore nearly all juiors learn these openings and play them.

At grandmaster level, especially amongst the top players 3.Bc4 is selldom played as it's recognised that white's only chance for a long lasting inititive in the open games is with 3.Bc5 and the Ruy Lopez.

This isn't a criticism of you though, I'm only talking at grandmaster level, at club level the Italian game, due to its simplicity and directness with an immediate attack on the vulunurable f7 square can be very effective for white.

But back on point, your chess computer in this game played at a very weak level, not even close to its highest level. And Kasparov is a lifetime Silician player I'm confused practically from move 1 and the choice 1.e5 from Kaparov.

[brucelee]

okay Bilbo. It may not be a high level.. I agree with you on that.

[Kev]

okay Bilbo. It may not be a high level.. I agree with you on that.

It wasn't very strong at all sadly, only around 1400 level tops but you won and that was the main thing. You played well though.

Chessmaster is a very customisable game and there are many different sliders and settings that affect the way it plays. This particular personality seemed to have a very small opening book, and very limited field depth you still won well.

Against a proper chess computer program though operating at full strength if you win you should immediately devote the rest of your life to the game as you'd be the best in the world within a year with proper study and there's plenty of money at the top.

And if you manage to beat Rybka at full strength with you playing black then you might even get in the record books as currently its beating GM's in official tournaments even at pawn and move odds.

[Julius Rain]

is and bruce and bilbo not getting along anymore? what else have i missed?

hey bruce, im in the P.I btw.

[brucelee]

okay Bilbo. It may not be a high level.. I agree with you on that.

It wasn't very strong at all sadly, only around 1400 level tops but you won and that was the main thing. You played well though.

Chessmaster is a very customisable game and there are many different sliders and settings that affect the way it plays. This particular personality seemed to have a very small opening book, and very limited field depth you still won well.

Against a proper chess computer program though operating at full strength if you win you should immediately devote the rest of your life to the game as you'd be the best in the world within a year with proper study and there's plenty of money at the top.

And if you manage to beat Rybka at full strength with you playing black then you might even get in the record books as currently its beating GM's in official tournaments even at pawn and move odds.

For the record, I believe the youngest GM now is from the PHilippines.


Julius,

Nice to know that you're in PI. I'm in Visayas now. You buy a sim card (around P20 and we will be text mate. hehehe. )Just buy a smart sim. Ask help from your relatives on how to text me if you're not that techie. PM me your smart number and I will text you.