The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary

[Kirkland Laing]

From the documentaries around the first fight him and Frazier were both going at it verbally. Ali was much more hardcore in what he was saying but didn't Frazier refer to Ali as "Cassius" during the first fight hype as well?

The main fact is, Ali then and Ali now and Frazier then and Frazier now. Ali moved on and made strides to be a better person after his boxing career which is why he is "the greatest"

Joe still holds onto 30 years ago and only reconciles with Ali if there is money involved and then reniggs it.

Nothing those two have done should be excused by anyone.

The difference is Ali has nothing to be excused for now, he's tried, and done all he can to make things right. Frazier is intent on still having some, and thats his fault.

watching the documentary would make you think the third fight crowd was pro Frazier all night

But when I watch the fight on ESPN Classic they booed at the start and Ali started making faces and pretending to cry and they began cheering. And they cheered even more when Ali and Frazier were talking trash in the ring introductions and I think Ali was saying "I'm gonna kick your ass" And Frazier was saying something back.

But it wasn't a pro Frazier only crowd as the documentary would let you think, they cheered at all the high spots, not just when Frazier did something.

Frazier did call Ali Cassius and other stuff but that was only in response to the stuff Ali was coming out with. It was not Ali's finest hour.

[El Kabong]

Match, I understand Vietnam wasn't popular, I understand Ali along with plenty of people (not just blacks) didn't want to go, I understand the racism that was going on at that time which is why I am anti-Ali....he was supposed to be a Civil Rights figure, Jesse Jackson hung out with him, Bryant Gumbel praised him.....but that was at the expense of Joe Frazier the epitome of who was being hurt at that time in history, and to not see the injustice that was done to Joe Frazier shows a bias that is idiotic. Joe Frazier grew up in South Carolina and I will tell you honestly one person to another, AT NO POINT IN HISTORY WOULD I WANT TO BE BLACK AND LIVE IN SOUTH CAROLINA. I would rather be in Alabama, Georgia, Texas, ANYWHERE other than South Carolina! He was poor, he got supported by a group of people that happened to be majority white (who hand the money at that point in time?) and because Ali berated Joe Frazier (a guy who helped Ali through the hard times of his being banned from boxing) Joe's kids got beat up in school just because they were Joe Frazier's kids.....how would that make you feel, being black, being shunned by people of your own race just because someone called you a name and apparently he had more credibility at the time, why I don't know.

Frazier did call Ali Cassius and other stuff but that was only in response to the stuff Ali was coming out with. It was not Ali's finest hour.

I am always shocked to find when we agree on something.


As for Joe Frazier calling Ali 'Cassius'...is that better or worse than calling a black person a "gorrilla", "Uncle Tom", or just plain ignorant. It's not like Frazier rolled out with the Family who owned Ali's relatives or anything. Muhammed Ali changed his name when he joined one of the dumbest fucking groups in the entire world the "Nation of Islam" a group of people who think that all muslims are black and the KKK is correct on segregation, and that the blue eyed white devil causes all the evil in the world...I think calling Ali 'Cassius' in hindsight ought to be considered a compliment along the lines of saying something like "I know you aren't THAT dumb Ali".

[Majesty]

Frazier did call Ali Cassius and other stuff but that was only in response to the stuff Ali was coming out with. It was not Ali's finest hour.

I am always shocked to find when we agree on something.


As for Joe Frazier calling Ali 'Cassius'...is that better or worse than calling a black person a "gorrilla", "Uncle Tom", or just plain ignorant. It's not like Frazier rolled out with the Family who owned Ali's relatives or anything. Muhammed Ali changed his name when he joined one of the dumbest fucking groups in the entire world the "Nation of Islam" a group of people who think that all muslims are black and the KKK is correct on segregation, and that the blue eyed white devil causes all the evil in the world...I think calling Ali 'Cassius' in hindsight ought to be considered a compliment along the lines of saying something like "I know you aren't THAT dumb Ali".

Your logic can make a lot of sense now but you have to understand how times were back then and how different mindsets were. It's not the world you or I grew up in and its something neither will understand nor be able to make sense of because we werent living back then and don't know what our opinions would be or say we'd be raised the same. So to look back on times and say "its stupid to live that way" yeah, hindsight is always 20-20. But at the time, it wasnt looked at it that way. It was over 40 years ago, there's no point in trying to make sense of it now imo.

[El Kabong]

Your logic can make a lot of sense now but you have to understand how times were back then and how different mindsets were. It's not the world you or I grew up in and its something neither will understand nor be able to make sense of because we werent living back then and don't know what our opinions would be or say we'd be raised the same. So to look back on times and say "its stupid to live that way" yeah, hindsight is always 20-20. But at the time, it wasnt looked at it that way. It was over 40 years ago, there's no point in trying to make sense of it now imo.

I addressed that in the part of my post that you chose not to quote....I think it is fucking childish and down right mean to trash a member of your own race the way Ali did for the reasons Ali did.

Was Joe Frazier white?
Did Joe Frazier start the Vietnam War?
Did Joe Frazier stand for segregation?
Did Joe Frazier unleash dogs and firehoses on black people?
Did Joe Frazier call anyone a n*gger?

The answers to all those questions is NO but oddly enough Ali did support segregation and Ali made Joe Frazier the embodiment of all those issues in the minds of some VERY ignorant people in the 1970's.

And post the 1968 Presidential Election the Vietnam War was extremely unpopular.

[match]

Match, I understand Vietnam wasn't popular, I understand Ali along with plenty of people (not just blacks) didn't want to go, I understand the racism that was going on at that time which is why I am anti-Ali....he was supposed to be a Civil Rights figure, Jesse Jackson hung out with him, Bryant Gumbel praised him.....but that was at the expense of Joe Frazier the epitome of who was being hurt at that time in history, and to not see the injustice that was done to Joe Frazier shows a bias that is idiotic. Joe Frazier grew up in South Carolina and I will tell you honestly one person to another, AT NO POINT IN HISTORY WOULD I WANT TO BE BLACK AND LIVE IN SOUTH CAROLINA. I would rather be in Alabama, Georgia, Texas, ANYWHERE other than South Carolina! He was poor, he got supported by a group of people that happened to be majority white (who hand the money at that point in time?) and because Ali berated Joe Frazier (a guy who helped Ali through the hard times of his being banned from boxing) Joe's kids got beat up in school just because they were Joe Frazier's kids.....how would that make you feel, being black, being shunned by people of your own race just because someone called you a name and apparently he had more credibility at the time, why I don't know.

Frazier did call Ali Cassius and other stuff but that was only in response to the stuff Ali was coming out with. It was not Ali's finest hour.

I am always shocked to find when we agree on something.


As for Joe Frazier calling Ali 'Cassius'...is that better or worse than calling a black person a "gorrilla", "Uncle Tom", or just plain ignorant. It's not like Frazier rolled out with the Family who owned Ali's relatives or anything. Muhammed Ali changed his name when he joined one of the dumbest fucking groups in the entire world the "Nation of Islam" a group of people who think that all muslims are black and the KKK is correct on segregation, and that the blue eyed white devil causes all the evil in the world...I think calling Ali 'Cassius' in hindsight ought to be considered a compliment along the lines of saying something like "I know you aren't THAT dumb Ali".

Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.

[Lance Uppercut]

Match, I understand Vietnam wasn't popular, I understand Ali along with plenty of people (not just blacks) didn't want to go, I understand the racism that was going on at that time which is why I am anti-Ali....he was supposed to be a Civil Rights figure, Jesse Jackson hung out with him, Bryant Gumbel praised him.....but that was at the expense of Joe Frazier the epitome of who was being hurt at that time in history, and to not see the injustice that was done to Joe Frazier shows a bias that is idiotic. Joe Frazier grew up in South Carolina and I will tell you honestly one person to another, AT NO POINT IN HISTORY WOULD I WANT TO BE BLACK AND LIVE IN SOUTH CAROLINA. I would rather be in Alabama, Georgia, Texas, ANYWHERE other than South Carolina! He was poor, he got supported by a group of people that happened to be majority white (who hand the money at that point in time?) and because Ali berated Joe Frazier (a guy who helped Ali through the hard times of his being banned from boxing) Joe's kids got beat up in school just because they were Joe Frazier's kids.....how would that make you feel, being black, being shunned by people of your own race just because someone called you a name and apparently he had more credibility at the time, why I don't know.

Frazier did call Ali Cassius and other stuff but that was only in response to the stuff Ali was coming out with. It was not Ali's finest hour.

I am always shocked to find when we agree on something.


As for Joe Frazier calling Ali 'Cassius'...is that better or worse than calling a black person a "gorrilla", "Uncle Tom", or just plain ignorant. It's not like Frazier rolled out with the Family who owned Ali's relatives or anything. Muhammed Ali changed his name when he joined one of the dumbest fucking groups in the entire world the "Nation of Islam" a group of people who think that all muslims are black and the KKK is correct on segregation, and that the blue eyed white devil causes all the evil in the world...I think calling Ali 'Cassius' in hindsight ought to be considered a compliment along the lines of saying something like "I know you aren't THAT dumb Ali".

Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.

Frazier was the son of poor share cropper who used to beat him: Ali grew up in a middle class neighborhood with a nice family. I dont think anyone who knows their stories would disagree that Ali had an easyier upbringing.

[match]

Match, I understand Vietnam wasn't popular, I understand Ali along with plenty of people (not just blacks) didn't want to go, I understand the racism that was going on at that time which is why I am anti-Ali....he was supposed to be a Civil Rights figure, Jesse Jackson hung out with him, Bryant Gumbel praised him.....but that was at the expense of Joe Frazier the epitome of who was being hurt at that time in history, and to not see the injustice that was done to Joe Frazier shows a bias that is idiotic. Joe Frazier grew up in South Carolina and I will tell you honestly one person to another, AT NO POINT IN HISTORY WOULD I WANT TO BE BLACK AND LIVE IN SOUTH CAROLINA. I would rather be in Alabama, Georgia, Texas, ANYWHERE other than South Carolina! He was poor, he got supported by a group of people that happened to be majority white (who hand the money at that point in time?) and because Ali berated Joe Frazier (a guy who helped Ali through the hard times of his being banned from boxing) Joe's kids got beat up in school just because they were Joe Frazier's kids.....how would that make you feel, being black, being shunned by people of your own race just because someone called you a name and apparently he had more credibility at the time, why I don't know.



I am always shocked to find when we agree on something.


As for Joe Frazier calling Ali 'Cassius'...is that better or worse than calling a black person a "gorrilla", "Uncle Tom", or just plain ignorant. It's not like Frazier rolled out with the Family who owned Ali's relatives or anything. Muhammed Ali changed his name when he joined one of the dumbest fucking groups in the entire world the "Nation of Islam" a group of people who think that all muslims are black and the KKK is correct on segregation, and that the blue eyed white devil causes all the evil in the world...I think calling Ali 'Cassius' in hindsight ought to be considered a compliment along the lines of saying something like "I know you aren't THAT dumb Ali".

Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.

Frazier was the son of poor share cropper who used to beat him: Ali grew up in a middle class neighborhood with a nice family. I dont think anyone who knows their stories would disagree that Ali had an easyier upbringing.

Dude, why do you think I mentioned the 'Mason Dixie line?' Lyle and I aren't talking about family life, we're talking about being Black growing up in the South.

[El Kabong]

Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.

#1 It's the Mason-Dixon line...."Dixie" is the nickname of the Southern States. I am aware of Kentucky being south of sed line and that point is moot when it comes to what Ali said about Frazier. And Lance is 100% correct about their comparative upbringings. Louisville as compared to Beaufort....come on, there is no decision to make, I would be in Louisville 10-10 times when given the choice between there and Beaufort.

#2 Just because Joe Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for. Michael Jordan and more recently Tiger Woods were very closely guarded in their political views. Those guys never got called 'Uncle Tom's' or 'House Negroes' or anything like that...they were always treated with respect. And that silence doesn't warrant or justify attacks by that nature. Had Joe Frazier suddenly decided to speak out like Ali (which would have been well outside his nature) would Ali have stopped his attacks

I think it was hateful and hypocritical, what Ali and the people that supported him did to Joe Frazier.

[match]

Two things about this Lyle, first and foremost, Ali grew up in Louisville Kentucky, which as I'm sure you know falls below the Mason Dixie line. There was only one state in the deep south that was clearly worse than all others, and that was the state that lead the country in lynchings, Mississippi. To say Ali had it easier than Frazier would be as dumb as saying Frazier had it easier than Ali. They were two Black men growing up in the south. And most importantly, Ali's uncle tom attacks on Frazier were fueled by the fact that he was not an advocate on Civil Rights, similarly to how O.J. Simpson came under fire for not being an outspoken advocate on civil rights. This was WHY Ali berrated him. Joe Frazier represented the establishment, in that he was allowed a shot at a title that was stripped from Ali by the establishment. Ali's mistake was that he thought Frazier was an uncle tom because he refused to speak out, but in reality he was just a simple man who did not have the social conciousness that Ali did. This is WHY Ali attacked him.

#1 It's the Mason-Dixon line...."Dixie" is the nickname of the Southern States. I am aware of Kentucky being south of sed line and that point is moot when it comes to what Ali said about Frazier. And Lance is 100% correct about their comparative upbringings. Louisville as compared to Beaufort....come on, there is no decision to make, I would be in Louisville 10-10 times when given the choice between there and Beaufort.

#2 Just because Joe Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for. Michael Jordan and more recently Tiger Woods were very closely guarded in their political views. Those guys never got called 'Uncle Tom's' or 'House Negroes' or anything like that...they were always treated with respect. And that silence doesn't warrant or justify attacks by that nature. Had Joe Frazier suddenly decided to speak out like Ali (which would have been well outside his nature) would Ali have stopped his attacks

I think it was hateful and hypocritical, what Ali and the people that supported him did to Joe Frazier.

You just reinterated what I just stated. --"Just because Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for." This is what I just said. I said the MISTAKE Ali made was that he mistook his silence for lack of empathy, as did many people in the country. Look at it this way, Max Schmelling recieved thousands of letters of hate mail from Americans because they THOUGHT he was a Nazi. He wasn't, but if you were German and were seen walking side by side with Hitler, it was reasonable to assume you were a Nazi. It was wrong, but it was understandable why people would assume that. Likewise, if you were powerful and Black and did not speak out during the Civil Rights movement, it was understandable that people would mistake you for an Uncle Tom. It was wrong, but it was simply understandable. And you need to understand what many in this thread have already brought up, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods do not live under Jim Crow laws. There is absolutely no political subject today that affects Black people as the Civil Rights movement did, and that's something you know Lyle.

[El Kabong]

You just reinterated what I just stated. --"Just because Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for." This is what I just said. I said the MISTAKE Ali made was that he mistook his silence for lack of empathy, as did many people in the country. Look at it this way, Max Schmelling recieved thousands of letters of hate mail from Americans because they THOUGHT he was a Nazi. He wasn't, but if you were German and were seen walking side by side with Hitler, it was reasonable to assume you were a Nazi. It was wrong, but it was understandable why people would assume that. Likewise, if you were powerful and Black and did not speak out during the Civil Rights movement, it was understandable that people would mistake you for an Uncle Tom. It was wrong, but it was simply understandable. And you need to understand what many in this thread have already brought up, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods do not live under Jim Crow laws. There is absolutely no political subject today that affects Black people as the Civil Rights movement did, and that's something you know Lyle.

OK, so I misinterpreted what you were saying...my bad. Ali used Frazier as propaganda when all Joe wanted to focus on is just fighting whoever was infront of him and then have his personal life at home where it was supposed to be.

As for Jordan and Woods, there was a feeling that those guys had to carry on what guys like Jim Brown did and be outspoken and take the Civil Rights movement to the next level. (That's the feeling I got anyway)....when Obama was running for President and everyone was hounding Tiger Woods for ANY opinion on it and he shied away from commenting on it, he caught hell for it. He did speak up after Barrack won but before then sports "journalists" like the fat slob Jason Whitlock were pressing Tiger to support Obama.

Sorry for the mix up...I just get a little fed up with people who treat Ali as if he did no wrong, IMO his rivalry with Frazier couldn't have been carried out in a more wrong manner.

[match]

You just reinterated what I just stated. --"Just because Frazier didn't speak out it doesn't mean he didn't support what Ali stood for." This is what I just said. I said the MISTAKE Ali made was that he mistook his silence for lack of empathy, as did many people in the country. Look at it this way, Max Schmelling recieved thousands of letters of hate mail from Americans because they THOUGHT he was a Nazi. He wasn't, but if you were German and were seen walking side by side with Hitler, it was reasonable to assume you were a Nazi. It was wrong, but it was understandable why people would assume that. Likewise, if you were powerful and Black and did not speak out during the Civil Rights movement, it was understandable that people would mistake you for an Uncle Tom. It was wrong, but it was simply understandable. And you need to understand what many in this thread have already brought up, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods do not live under Jim Crow laws. There is absolutely no political subject today that affects Black people as the Civil Rights movement did, and that's something you know Lyle.

OK, so I misinterpreted what you were saying...my bad. Ali used Frazier as propaganda when all Joe wanted to focus on is just fighting whoever was infront of him and then have his personal life at home where it was supposed to be.

As for Jordan and Woods, there was a feeling that those guys had to carry on what guys like Jim Brown did and be outspoken and take the Civil Rights movement to the next level. (That's the feeling I got anyway)....when Obama was running for President and everyone was hounding Tiger Woods for ANY opinion on it and he shied away from commenting on it, he caught hell for it. He did speak up after Barrack won but before then sports "journalists" like the fat slob Jason Whitlock were pressing Tiger to support Obama.

Sorry for the mix up...I just get a little fed up with people who treat Ali as if he did no wrong, IMO his rivalry with Frazier couldn't have been carried out in a more wrong manner.

No problem man. As I said before, it's understandable why there are those who dislike Ali not only for how he treated Frazier, but for joining a hate filled organization such as the Nation of Islam. That whole ordeal was a stain on his legacy, I was just trying to say that it's not like Ali woke up one day and decided he was gonna ruin Joe Frazier and his children's lives. It was just a real pressure cooker of a decade as far as race relations.