Which is why Ali's victory was even more impressive because he had lost a couple of fights, was nearing the end of his career and was fighting the most powerful heavyweight ever.Originally Posted by Lyle
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
Which is why Ali's victory was even more impressive because he had lost a couple of fights, was nearing the end of his career and was fighting the most powerful heavyweight ever.
Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.
Old Guard
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
What makes boxing great is that it's more than just about jabs and hooks. There's a huge mental aspect to the sport, that many fans ignore. Yeah, Ali held Foreman in the back of the head. And yeah, Foreman fought a dumb fight. But Foreman was a feared monster who had intimidated, then destroyed every fighter he ever met. He annihilated the great Joe Frazier in 2 (3?) short rounds (don't remember off hand). Whereas Ali was, as Master said, near the end of his career. His strategy was brilliant, the setting exotic (Zaire), the outcome unthinkable. And Ali didn't win a controversial decision. He knocked Big George OUT. So Lyle, give the man his due on this one, huh?Which is why Ali's victory was even more impressive because he had lost a couple of fights, was nearing the end of his career and was fighting the most powerful heavyweight ever.
Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lAZadiM4zg&NR=1
COME OOOOOOOOOON!!!!
Ali's win over Foreman was impressive but I just don't think it was his best or his flashiest.
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
Neither was B-Hop's over Pavlik, but the fact that in both fights, the old man who wasn't given a shot in hell to win, came out and schooled the younger undefeated power puncher, it makes it that much more impressive
Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
I'm sorry I don't like "Rope-a-Dope" Ali....I think it's boring as fuck and in no way does it match up with this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJUzl0aFHZw
Old Guard
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
I don't necessarily think there's a disagreement here. Technically, no way does the "Foreman" Ali compare with the "Cleveland Williams" Ali. (Remember, Ali was at his young peak then.) But in terms of boxing impact... no way does the Williams win compare with Ali's win over Foreman.
Anyway, and back to my original point.... Larry Holmes is an ass for calling Ali overrated. And I wish he'd try a comeback himself over Wladimir Klitschko. I'd buy ringside seats and truly enjoy the massacre.
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
Just a few quotes from the Easton Assasin.
"It's hard being black. You ever been black? I was black once - when I was poor."
"I came from a dirt farm, now I'm filthy rich."
"Don King doesn't care about black or white. He just cares about green."
“People think that I reached the top overnight; well, it took me fourteen years. I was twenty-nine before I really made it. I've had my jaws and hands broken. One arm is out of place. I've paid my dues in this business.”
“I don't want you guys to write, "Larry Holmes fought one too many."”
“All fighters are prostitutes and all promoters are pimps.”
"I decided to box my way out of the ghetto"
"There is no quit in me."
"King is an equal opportunity dirty bag, he screws everybody."
Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
No sense in being angry at the guy for speaking the truth...Ali is more personality than boxer.
Hey I know my opinion of Ali goes over like a fart in a diving helmet but I just think Ali's persona, charisma, and his cultural icon status tend gloss over any flaws he had as a fighter and a person.
No boxer is perfect, no boxer is unbeatable, and no boxer is as good as people think/assume Ali was.
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
nobody says that Ali was unbeatable, he retired with 5 losses, Frazier,Norton,Spinks, Holmes, and Berbick.No sense in being angry at the guy for speaking the truth...Ali is more personality than boxer.
Hey I know my opinion of Ali goes over like a fart in a diving helmet but I just think Ali's persona, charisma, and his cultural icon status tend gloss over any flaws he had as a fighter and a person.
No boxer is perfect, no boxer is unbeatable, and no boxer is as good as people think/assume Ali was.
but no one can deny the fact that he beat a legendary names and did it without the controversy that there is now in boxing
Archie Moore
Henry Cooper (2X)
Sonny Liston (2X)
Floyd Patterson (2X)
George Chuvalo (2X)
Ernie Terrell
Jerry Quarry (2X)
Jimmy Ellis
Buster Mathis
Bob Foster
Ken Norton (2X)
Joe Frazier (2X)
George Foreman
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks
tell me one heavy in the last 30 years who has that amount of top talent on his record
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
Well the only heavyweights i can think of that are close are Holyfeild and Lewis when i comes to who they had wins over but that is about it.
Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
So Ali was able to win but he was also blessed with tons of guys to fight. Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano weren't as lucky but 25 successful title defenses and going undefeated speak volumes of greatness.
I really don't rate Ken Norton as all that great of a heavyweight, he was awkward but anytime he was put in with a puncher he got KO'd.
Earnie Shavers wasn't a class heavyweight either, he was just a big puncher, there was nothing else about his game that was amazing.
LEON SPINKS?!?!?! You were arguing FOR Ali being great right
Holyfield and Lewis have very good records and I think they fought top level competition and rarely lost.
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
So Ali was able to win but he was also blessed with tons of guys to fight. Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano weren't as lucky but 25 successful title defenses and going undefeated speak volumes of greatness.
I really don't rate Ken Norton as all that great of a heavyweight, he was awkward but anytime he was put in with a puncher he got KO'd.
Earnie Shavers wasn't a class heavyweight either, he was just a big puncher, there was nothing else about his game that was amazing.
LEON SPINKS?!?!?! You were arguing FOR Ali being great right
Holyfield and Lewis have very good records and I think they fought top level competition and rarely lost.
neither of them had a 3 year hiatus.
Ali had to relinquish the title only 9 defenses into it, it's not out of the question that in those 3 years of his physical prime that he could have built an even greater heavyweight record. And Ali was also great because most of his biggest victories came after his hiatus and prime.
His win against Foreman was one of his greatest.
Lyle you bring up a point that Ali wasn't so flashy anymore and how Foreman was a monster.
That's the point. What makes that win so great was the fact that Ali wasn't the Ali who fought Cleveland Williams and was way past his prime, and he went in there and he beat the young monster who was undisputed champ George Foreman who knocked out Frazier and used a brilliant strategy to beat him.
The point of that victory was that it wasn't a prime Ali and he beat a Prime George Foreman, not only beat him but he knocked him out. It doesn't matter if it was pretty or not, what matters is that he did it out of his prime and no one game him a chance.
Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
Oh it was a defining moment of Ali's career but it was a shitty fight full of wild punches and no strategy on one side and leaning on the ropes covering up and pot shotting ont he other side. The WIN was much more impressive than the actual fight.
It is kind of like saying Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s win over Carlos Baldomir was his most impressive win....I mean it was wonderful for him to win the fight but he probably could have done it in a more crowd pleasing manner.
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Larry has said some stupid things over the times, but it was a very polarized, racially divided country back then. I think that had a lot to do with the Marciano comment.Larry Holmes might be a HOF heavyweight. I still can't stand the jerk. I remember when he ran at the mouth saying that Rocky Marciano "couldn't carry my jock." I also remember how everything was racial to him. Gerry Cooney got more press 'cause he was white, blah, blah, blah. I used to root for him to get KTFO'ed, and totally loved it when Tyson did the honors.
But he topped himself on the Ali-Frazier III ESPN Classic special. Talk about sour grapes and being an old bitter jerk. He's talking about Ali in an interview, and starts by saying: "Ali was/is a great person, but..." Hell, I knew he was going to say something critical, like ".....but he didn't have a good right hand." Or, ".....but he left himself open for the left hook." But no. The bitter jerk finished it by saying: ".....but he was totally overrated." WTF?!?!? Who the hell do you think you are, you two-bit bum? Just 'cause you've always been jealous of the attention Ali got during his career, is no reason to be pot-shotting one of the greatest of all time.
I'm sorry, I just can't stand the jerk... I don't care HOW many buildings he put up in Easton, PA. I hope he tries a comeback against a Klitschko.
However, hands down, Holmes had the best jab that I've ever seen, and its never been duplicated by any boxer.
P.S.- Puerto Rican fighters can't hold a jock strap to Mexican fighters.
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Re: And used to think L Holmes was a jerk BEFORE this week
yet we have the most champions per capita in all of boxing historyWell, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Larry has said some stupid things over the times, but it was a very polarized, racially divided country back then. I think that had a lot to do with the Marciano comment.Larry Holmes might be a HOF heavyweight. I still can't stand the jerk. I remember when he ran at the mouth saying that Rocky Marciano "couldn't carry my jock." I also remember how everything was racial to him. Gerry Cooney got more press 'cause he was white, blah, blah, blah. I used to root for him to get KTFO'ed, and totally loved it when Tyson did the honors.
But he topped himself on the Ali-Frazier III ESPN Classic special. Talk about sour grapes and being an old bitter jerk. He's talking about Ali in an interview, and starts by saying: "Ali was/is a great person, but..." Hell, I knew he was going to say something critical, like ".....but he didn't have a good right hand." Or, ".....but he left himself open for the left hook." But no. The bitter jerk finished it by saying: ".....but he was totally overrated." WTF?!?!? Who the hell do you think you are, you two-bit bum? Just 'cause you've always been jealous of the attention Ali got during his career, is no reason to be pot-shotting one of the greatest of all time.
I'm sorry, I just can't stand the jerk... I don't care HOW many buildings he put up in Easton, PA. I hope he tries a comeback against a Klitschko.
However, hands down, Holmes had the best jab that I've ever seen, and its never been duplicated by any boxer.
P.S.- Puerto Rican fighters can't hold a jock strap to Mexican fighters.
and have count em 6 champions right now
Daniel Santos
Miguel Cotto
Roman "Rocky" Martinez
Juanma Lopez
Jose "Carita" Lopez
Ivan "Iron Boy" Calderon
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