Where will you put Pac in the All-Time Greats?

[brucelee]

CMM, I have to disagree with you on Agapito Sanchez. Before the fight was ended, Pac was winning that fight. VD and I had a debate about it. I've watched the fight again and again, and it was clear Pac was winning. Sanchez does not deserve any mention on Pac. He was simply the dirtiest fighter I've seen, worse than Golota.

[CutMeMick]

CMM, I have to disagree with you on Agapito Sanchez. Before the fight was ended, Pac was winning that fight. VD and I had a debate about it. I've watched the fight again and again, and it was clear Pac was winning. Sanchez does not deserve any mention on Pac. He was simply the dirtiest fighter I've seen, worse than Golota.

We can agree to disagree.
I agree and I clearly stated Sanchez was dirty.
I also clearly stated if not for the 2 point deductions Pac would have lost that fight look up the scoring on the fight and see for yourself.

[brucelee]

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.


I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.

Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.

Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.

Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.

Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.

Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.

[CutMeMick]

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.


I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.

Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.

Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.

Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.

Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.

Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.

Well we can be here all night in the end you'll have your take and I'll have mine. Yours comes from hard core base mine comes from a more neutral base.

I said this last year after JMM-Pac II the more time passes the better chances that Pac has to defeat JMM. Time is what is defeating JMM and the more the time pases the better chances that Pac has to clearly beat this time. So in part I feel that JMM will lose to PBF, I also feel Pac will lose to PBF and JMM-Pac III will happen and this 3rd time Pac will clearly defeat him with no questions asked.

[amat]

If you look at Armstrongs record, he lost 3 of his first 4, was KO'd in his first fight and had a record of 72-11-7 when he won his first world title.

Um Bilbo, what does this have to do with anything? You do realize that if you hold this against Armstrong then you have to hold Pacquiao's early losses against him right? That seems wildly inconsistent on how you judge your fighters. Right? I mean if Armstrong getting KO'd in his first fight excludes him, what would Pacquiao falling like a ton of bricks to a Torrecampo body shot do to him?

[Spicoli]

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.


I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.

Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.

Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.

Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.

Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.

Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.

Jim Jones would be very proud of you Bruce.Especially that ending 'If and prolly' # 1 all time part.....Cannot wait to see who/why out ranks him top 4?

[CFH]

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.


I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.

Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.

Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.

Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.

Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.

Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.

You're utterly delusional if you believe that. He's an ATG without a doubt, but there is no chance he's the best fighter ever if he beats Mayweather.

[brucelee]

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.


I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.

Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.

Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.

Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.

Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.

Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.

Jim Jones would be very proud of you Bruce.Especially that ending 'If and prolly' # 1 all time part.....Cannot wait to see who/why out ranks him top 4?

Honestly, I have him within top 5. It's difficult to be really comparing him with others in the top 5 coz we have our own opinions. One thing is sure, pac is doing things extraordinarily. He has no league. That makes him all-time great.

[brucelee]

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.


I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.

Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.

Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.

Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.

Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.

Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.

You're utterly delusional if you believe that. He's an ATG without a doubt, but there is no chance he's the best fighter ever if he beats Mayweather.

That is what many have been saying about us when he fought Barrera1, Morales2, Hatton, DLH. You can call me delusional but I guess I'm not hallucinating when Pac demolished Hatton in 2.

Anyway, this is only my opinion and I may have lacked the necessary knowledge to judge properly. Time will be the judge for what we say. For now, I say, Pac is top5 ATG.

[Kev]

If you look at Armstrongs record, he lost 3 of his first 4, was KO'd in his first fight and had a record of 72-11-7 when he won his first world title.

Um Bilbo, what does this have to do with anything? You do realize that if you hold this against Armstrong then you have to hold Pacquiao's early losses against him right? That seems wildly inconsistent on how you judge your fighters. Right? I mean if Armstrong getting KO'd in his first fight excludes him, what would Pacquiao falling like a ton of bricks to a Torrecampo body shot do to him?

No Amat I brought up Amstrongs early record to counter the claims about Pacquaio's early losses. You see Mick and others have already stated Pacquaio lost early in his career and was struggling against Agapito as if that's a disqualification from greatness.

It isn't, what matters is heights a fighter aspires to, not whether he had a faultless run to get there. Pacquaio lost fights early in his career, and I was highlighting the fact that even the great Henry Armstrong, nearly always number 3 on an all time great list had a bunch of early losses too, including being KO'd in his very first fight, and that he had already been defeated 11 times before he won his first world title.

So you cannot disqualify Pacquaio from conversations of greatness based on early losses any more than you can Armstrong.


I also went on to ask the question (which nobody has answered) what was it about Armstrong's three world title at three weight classes simultaneously that was better than Manny's three world titles at three weight classes in 15 months?

Agains this isn't a statement but a question. Was Armstrongs opposition better than Mannys? Did he beat fighters who are also considered to be in the top 20 All Time greats, remember CutMeMick says Pac is disqualified from being Top 20 right noe because he hasn't beaten another Top 20 of all time great, so I'm just asking the question how many Top 20 All Times did Armstrong beat?

It is my belief, as I said earlier that had Manny achieved what he has achived in the last three years or so but 50 years ago he would be regarded as easily top 10 of all time maybe even top 5 were he to retire on this note.

[zhubin]

Pac is unquestionably the #1 pfp fighter in the world. He is now also the biggest draw in boxing. Mad respect to him. Having said that...some people are clearly getting carried away by already putting him in the top 5 all time, let alone top 10. He beat Barrera twice. He fought Marquez twice: first fight a draw, second fight a questionable win. He fought Morales 3 times: lost the first time, beat a shot Eric the second and third fights. He beat an average lightweight in Diaz. He beat a past it and weight drained Oscar (though he still deserves massive respect for beating a 147 pounder). And now he beat Hatton...which is a legitamately big win, especially the way he won. Now...that is not a bad resume at all. In fact...Manny is one of the few fighters who fights the best out there. STILL...no where near top 10 or top 5. IF...he beats Floyd...then we can have a serious discussion.

[Kev]

Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.


I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.

Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.

Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.

Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.

Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.

Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.

You're utterly delusional if you believe that. He's an ATG without a doubt, but there is no chance he's the best fighter ever if he beats Mayweather.

What, if he beat even Floyd Mayweather there's no chance he'd be the best ever? Even CutMeMick thinks he'd have a case.

Seriously how would Ray Robinson or Ali, Armstrong and Pep achieved more than a flyweight from Asia who rose from absolute poverty to conquer 7 weight classes beating a whose who of hall of fame fighters and then went up to welter weight and defeated the greatest fighter of his generation, the undefeated 6 weight world champ Floyd Mayweather?

That would be a rise of 10 (TEN) weight divisions from where he started.

Now I don't think Ali, Robinson, Armstrong, Pep, Leonard, Duran hell ANYONE could claim such a feat.

Ali proved himself to be the best heavyweight of his generation, but he had losses along the way, even in his prime.

Robinson seemed to be untouchable at welterweight but lost his title 5 times at middleweight so was clearly not unbeatable.

Armstrong held 3 world titles at 3 weight classes simultaneously, Pacman would have won 4 in succession (if we count Floyd as the true champ at welter which I think most would agree he is)

Now, I'm really not convinved that Pacquaio can beat Floyd Mayweather, but IF he did he would without a shadow of doubt jump to being in the top 3, eclipsing Armstrong and Pep and imo it would only be nostaliga stopping him from topping Ali.

He's gone through 10 weight classes Josh, 10 that is unbelievable.

Ray Robinson failed in his attempt to go from middlweight to light heavy, Manny has gone from minimum weight where started at 106 to if he beat Floyd, ruling the 147 lb 10 weight classes higher.

Nobody else would have achieved anything like that.

However, I don't think he will beat Floyd, but if he did it would be incredible.

[Fenster]

Pac hasn't "conquered" all the divisions he's won fights in. That's going way over the top.

It's pointless comparing the amount of weightclasses that mordern fighters have covered compared with old fighters.

There were no intermediate weightclasses for the old boys.

[antimoron]

there is one thing that pac has that the old timers doesn't have... 4 Fukking LINEAL WORLD TITLE.. Where will pac be in the all time list... he does not belong in the list coz no matter what he does he will not be given the right recognition that he deserve..

[Fenster]

there is one thing that pac has that the old timers doesn't have... 4 Fukking LINEAL WORLD TITLE.. Where will pac be in the all time list... he does not belong in the list coz no matter what he does he will not be given the right recognition that he deserve..

What four lineal titles did he win?

Hatton 140
Barrera 126