Who among the 147 champs you want PAC to possibly get his 7th division title?

[XaduBoxer]

I'm just trying to make some sense of this stupid hypocritical nonsense.

So far, I have Pac as a three time Ring champ and a three time lineal (man who beat the man) champ.

Just off to buy a new anorak

At least you and Mick agreed that PAC is a 3-time lineal champ only with different set of divisions...

For that reason, I think PAC is really a 4-time lineal champ after all... Aside from Cliff Rold, ESPN's Dan Rafael also recognized PAC as a 4-time lineal champ... Congrats PAC...
.

If people agree the method for repairing a broken lineal link is the no.1 and no.2 fighting then Pac probably does have claims to four titles

Who decides the top two though?

Yep, that's the agreed way to do it... PAC a 4-time lineal champ...
.

[CutMeMick]

I'll just post an article:

Pacquiao’s Title Resume

World Flyweight (112) – KO 8 Chatchai Sasakul: Turned professional at age 16 with a points win over Edmund Ignacio on January 22, 1995, Pacquiao would amass a record of 23-1 en route to his first major title win on December 4, 1999. The WBC recognized Sasakul as champion after a surprising upset of previous conqueror and long-time champion Yuri Arbachakov in 1997.

History also recognized Sasakul as king.

The WBC belt then, and still, also runs parallel to the lineal World championship at Flyweight all the way back to the reign of Miguel Canto. Fittingly, it took a championship bomb to begin Pacquiao’s collection of Gold. The more experienced Sasakul counter punched and outslicked the taller Pacquiao for much of the bout, though the youngster was never out of the fight. Pacquiao at 19 was much more a one-handed fighter then versus the better all-around warrior he’s become under the tutelage of Freddie Roach. Even then, that one hand, the left, was enough if it landed. It did and Sasakul was relieved of the top honors at 112 lbs.

There was one Flyweight during the reign of Arbachakov and later Sasakul who could make a strong case against recognizing the validity of recognizing their lineal claims to the top, but American Mark “Too Sharp” Johnson had moved up to capture gold at 115 lbs. some eight months before Pacquiao’s ascension.

Forecast: Clear, Lineal Claim to the World Title

Boxer,
Who typed this article?

What a crock of shit it is and whoever put it together needs to be slapped. It wouldn't shock me to know a Filipino writer put it together and going out on a wild guess here it's either you (or someone from that Pac site you guys post on)

It's funny because prior to Pac, todays Filipino fans didn't know about lineages and or the rich history of the sport. Now suddenly they know who beat whom and the whole history of the sport.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for fans supporting the sport and making it great but when people like the idiot who typed this article start doing things like this which is put WRONG/FALSE/INCORRECT info. that pisses me off.

He clearly does not understand what lineage means and is.

The WBC title went through so many names in the 80's that the lineage was lost somewhere along Chitlada-Kim as they traded the title.
After Chitladas win he no longer was the Ring Champ.
You can't claim lineage to a title because you picked up a strap. specialy when their is another title holder who just beat you.
Which was the case in the division.

The writer clearly leaves out that Yuri was never the Ring Champ. so there is absolutely NO lineage between Kittikasems win over Yuri.

Lineages are kept either by dethroning the champ and or #1 vs. #2 face off. As I mentioned Kim-Chitlada was the last lineage in the Fly division.

Pac has 3 lineage titles; Feather, Sup. Feather and Light Welter.
Which is great and Henry Armstrong would be proud of him.

This article was written by Cliff Rold... I think he's an American and a credible boxing writer...

Cliff Rold is a member of the Ring Magazine Ratings Advisory Panel and the Boxing Writers Association of America. He can be reached at roldboxing AT hotmail.com if you have inquiries about his article...

BTW, below is the link to that article:

link --> Pacquiao Aims for Four (and Six): Real History Part 1 - Boxing News

Well he needs to be fired from his job.
What's even funnier is that he works for the Ring but doesn't realize that the Ring never recognized Yuri as their champ...
It's simple. Yuri was not the Ring/Lineal champ therefor Sasakuls win did not make him the lineal champ.

I'll just post an article:
Pacquiao’s Title Resume

World Flyweight (112) – KO 8 Chatchai Sasakul: Turned professional at age 16 with a points win over Edmund Ignacio on January 22, 1995, Pacquiao would amass a record of 23-1 en route to his first major title win on December 4, 1999. The WBC recognized Sasakul as champion after a surprising upset of previous conqueror and long-time champion Yuri Arbachakov in 1997.

History also recognized Sasakul as king.

The WBC belt then, and still, also runs parallel to the lineal World championship at Flyweight all the way back to the reign of Miguel Canto. Fittingly, it took a championship bomb to begin Pacquiao’s collection of Gold. The more experienced Sasakul counter punched and outslicked the taller Pacquiao for much of the bout, though the youngster was never out of the fight. Pacquiao at 19 was much more a one-handed fighter then versus the better all-around warrior he’s become under the tutelage of Freddie Roach. Even then, that one hand, the left, was enough if it landed. It did and Sasakul was relieved of the top honors at 112 lbs.

There was one Flyweight during the reign of Arbachakov and later Sasakul who could make a strong case against recognizing the validity of recognizing their lineal claims to the top, but American Mark “Too Sharp” Johnson had moved up to capture gold at 115 lbs. some eight months before Pacquiao’s ascension.

Forecast: Clear, Lineal Claim to the World Title

Boxer,
Who typed this article?

What a crock of shit it is and whoever put it together needs to be slapped. It wouldn't shock me to know a Filipino writer put it together and going out on a wild guess here it's either you (or someone from that Pac site you guys post on)

It's funny because prior to Pac, todays Filipino fans didn't know about lineages and or the rich history of the sport. Now suddenly they know who beat whom and the whole history of the sport.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for fans supporting the sport and making it great but when people like the idiot who typed this article start doing things like this which is put WRONG/FALSE/INCORRECT info. that pisses me off.

He clearly does not understand what lineage means and is.

The WBC title went through so many names in the 80's that the lineage was lost somewhere along Chitlada-Kim as they traded the title.
After Chitladas win he no longer was the Ring Champ.
You can't claim lineage to a title because you picked up a strap. specialy when their is another title holder who just beat you.
Which was the case in the division.

The writer clearly leaves out that Yuri was never the Ring Champ. so there is absolutely NO lineage between Kittikasems win over Yuri.

Lineages are kept either by dethroning the champ and or #1 vs. #2 face off. As I mentioned Kim-Chitlada was the last lineage in the Fly division.

Pac has 3 lineage titles; Feather, Sup. Feather and Light Welter.
Which is great and Henry Armstrong would be proud of him.

You need The Ring title to be recognised as lineal?

I thought the most bombproof method of lineal was "the man who beat the man?" The man who dethrones the champ?

You can trace Pac to the Kim-Chitlada fight.

Sot Chitalada-Yong Kang Kim-Sot Chitalada-Maungchai Kittikasem-Yuri Arbachakov-Chatchai Sasakul-Manny Pacquiao.

So are you saying because The Ring stop recognising champions the lineal heritage should be scrapped? That seems pretty fucked up man.

Well the Ring are the people who created lineal champs.
How else are we to keep track.
Let me give you and example.
For the sake of the debate here...
Daisuke Naito can claim he's the Flyweight lineal champ because he can 'supposably' be traced back to "The Man who Beat the Man"?

Aside from Cliff Rold, ESPN's Dan Rafael also recognized PAC as a 4-time lineal champ... Congrats PAC...

Cliff Rold has really shown his smarts on lineage to me.
As I stated above by his viewing Daisuke Naito is the Lineal Flyweight champ.

Dan Rafael... PPPLU-EAAAAASE!
Rafael also recognized Joel Julio as the greatest thing since Port-A-Potties and yet here we are couple years later and Julio is well... Not so great to say the least.

[XaduBoxer]

Boxer,
Who typed this article?

What a crock of shit it is and whoever put it together needs to be slapped. It wouldn't shock me to know a Filipino writer put it together and going out on a wild guess here it's either you (or someone from that Pac site you guys post on)

It's funny because prior to Pac, todays Filipino fans didn't know about lineages and or the rich history of the sport. Now suddenly they know who beat whom and the whole history of the sport.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for fans supporting the sport and making it great but when people like the idiot who typed this article start doing things like this which is put WRONG/FALSE/INCORRECT info. that pisses me off.

He clearly does not understand what lineage means and is.

The WBC title went through so many names in the 80's that the lineage was lost somewhere along Chitlada-Kim as they traded the title.
After Chitladas win he no longer was the Ring Champ.
You can't claim lineage to a title because you picked up a strap. specialy when their is another title holder who just beat you.
Which was the case in the division.

The writer clearly leaves out that Yuri was never the Ring Champ. so there is absolutely NO lineage between Kittikasems win over Yuri.

Lineages are kept either by dethroning the champ and or #1 vs. #2 face off. As I mentioned Kim-Chitlada was the last lineage in the Fly division.

Pac has 3 lineage titles; Feather, Sup. Feather and Light Welter.
Which is great and Henry Armstrong would be proud of him.

This article was written by Cliff Rold... I think he's an American and a credible boxing writer...

Cliff Rold is a member of the Ring Magazine Ratings Advisory Panel and the Boxing Writers Association of America. He can be reached at roldboxing AT hotmail.com if you have inquiries about his article...

BTW, below is the link to that article:

link --> Pacquiao Aims for Four (and Six): Real History Part 1 - Boxing News

Well he needs to be fired from his job.
What's even funnier is that he works for the Ring but doesn't realize that the Ring never recognized Yuri as their champ...
It's simple. Yuri was not the Ring/Lineal champ therefor Sasakuls win did not make him the lineal champ.

You can email Cliff Rold a clarification if you want... What I don't like in your previous comment is how you mock Filipino boxing fans regarding their knowledge about lineages...

You need The Ring title to be recognised as lineal?

I thought the most bombproof method of lineal was "the man who beat the man?" The man who dethrones the champ?

You can trace Pac to the Kim-Chitlada fight.

Sot Chitalada-Yong Kang Kim-Sot Chitalada-Maungchai Kittikasem-Yuri Arbachakov-Chatchai Sasakul-Manny Pacquiao.

So are you saying because The Ring stop recognising champions the lineal heritage should be scrapped? That seems pretty fucked up man.

Well the Ring are the people who created lineal champs.
How else are we to keep track.
Let me give you and example.
For the sake of the debate here...
Daisuke Naito can claim he's the Flyweight lineal champ because he can 'supposably' be traced back to "The Man who Beat the Man"?

Aside from Cliff Rold, ESPN's Dan Rafael also recognized PAC as a 4-time lineal champ... Congrats PAC...

Cliff Rold has really shown his smarts on lineage to me.
As I stated above by his viewing Daisuke Naito is the Lineal Flyweight champ.

Dan Rafael... PPPLU-EAAAAASE!
Rafael also recognized Joel Julio as the greatest thing since Port-A-Potties and yet here we are couple years later and Julio is well... Not so great to say the least.

Naito got his lineage from Sasakul-Pacquiao-Singsurat-Tunacao-Pongsaklek-Naito ...

Well at least Dan Rafael and Cliff Rold has millions of readers noticing that they recognized PAC as a 4-time lineal champ...
.

[CutMeMick]

This article was written by Cliff Rold... I think he's an American and a credible boxing writer...

Cliff Rold is a member of the Ring Magazine Ratings Advisory Panel and the Boxing Writers Association of America. He can be reached at roldboxing AT hotmail.com if you have inquiries about his article...

BTW, below is the link to that article:

link --> Pacquiao Aims for Four (and Six): Real History Part 1 - Boxing News

Well he needs to be fired from his job.
What's even funnier is that he works for the Ring but doesn't realize that the Ring never recognized Yuri as their champ...
It's simple. Yuri was not the Ring/Lineal champ therefor Sasakuls win did not make him the lineal champ.

You can email Cliff Rold a clarification if you want... What I don't like in your previous comment is how you mock Filipino boxing fans regarding their knowledge about lineages...

Aside from Cliff Rold, ESPN's Dan Rafael also recognized PAC as a 4-time lineal champ... Congrats PAC...

Cliff Rold has really shown his smarts on lineage to me.
As I stated above by his viewing Daisuke Naito is the Lineal Flyweight champ.

Dan Rafael... PPPLU-EAAAAASE!
Rafael also recognized Joel Julio as the greatest thing since Port-A-Potties and yet here we are couple years later and Julio is well... Not so great to say the least.

Naito got his lineage from Sasakul-Pacquiao-Singsurat-Tunacao-Pongsaklek-Naito ...

Well at least Dan Rafael and Cliff Rold has millions of readers noticing that they recognized PAC as a 4-time lineal champ...
.

You completely missed my point on Naito...
Naito is NOT the lineal champ.
As I said for the sake of the debate (I hope you know what I mean by that cause it seems like you dont) Daisuke Naito can claim he's the Flyweight lineal champ because he can 'supposably' be traced back to "The Man who Beat the Man"?
I thought Nonito Donaire was the best Flyweight in the world according to you and the rest of the PacNut Huggers?
Now suddenly you are saying it's Daisuke?
At this time the Flyweight div. has no lineal champ and that's a fact.
Check out the Ring lineages if you want to see the REAL lineal champs.
You will clearly see who they are.

As for the Cliff and Dan comment, oh! me oh! my Boxer please don't tell me that. I loath to have millions of readers.

I have my true fans here in Saddos who are THEE most knowlegeable fans bare none in the planet.
Head & Shoulders above ANY other boxing forum out there.
Any....

I respect anyone who's out there for the sport and all but clearly Cliff and Dan are not the final word and in the end the lineal champs can be traced by the Ring Magazine title they are awarded just like the one Pac got when he defeated Hatton. Sadly for you Pac's record as of today only shows 3 and there is nothing Cliff, Dan or you can do about it.

[XaduBoxer]

Well he needs to be fired from his job.
What's even funnier is that he works for the Ring but doesn't realize that the Ring never recognized Yuri as their champ...
It's simple. Yuri was not the Ring/Lineal champ therefor Sasakuls win did not make him the lineal champ.

You can email Cliff Rold a clarification if you want... What I don't like in your previous comment is how you mock Filipino boxing fans regarding their knowledge about lineages...

Cliff Rold has really shown his smarts on lineage to me.
As I stated above by his viewing Daisuke Naito is the Lineal Flyweight champ.

Dan Rafael... PPPLU-EAAAAASE!
Rafael also recognized Joel Julio as the greatest thing since Port-A-Potties and yet here we are couple years later and Julio is well... Not so great to say the least.

Naito got his lineage from Sasakul-Pacquiao-Singsurat-Tunacao-Pongsaklek-Naito ...

Well at least Dan Rafael and Cliff Rold has millions of readers noticing that they recognized PAC as a 4-time lineal champ...
.

You completely missed my point on Naito...
Naito is NOT the lineal champ.
As I said for the sake of the debate (I hope you know what I mean by that cause it seems like you dont) Daisuke Naito can claim he's the Flyweight lineal champ because he can 'supposably' be traced back to "The Man who Beat the Man"?
I thought Nonito Donaire was the best Flyweight in the world according to you and the rest of the PacNut Huggers?
Now suddenly you are saying it's Daisuke?
At this time the Flyweight div. has no lineal champ and that's a fact.
Check out the Ring lineages if you want to see the REAL lineal champs.
You will clearly see who they are.

As for the Cliff and Dan comment, oh! me oh! my Boxer please don't tell me that. I loath to have millions of readers.

I have my true fans here in Saddos who are THEE most knowlegeable fans bare none in the planet.
Head & Shoulders above ANY other boxing forum out there.
Any....

I respect anyone who's out there for the sport and all but clearly Cliff and Dan are not the final word and in the end the lineal champs can be traced by the Ring Magazine title they are awarded just like the one Pac got when he defeated Hatton. Sadly for you Pac's record as of today only shows 3 and there is nothing Cliff, Dan or you can do about it.

Nothing wrong with Naito being the lineal champ, he beat the man who beat the man... Heck, Naito defeated Pongsucklick ... I can even accept Armando Santa Cruz being lineal champ at one time if the judges didn't rob him against Casamayor... Santa Cruz is not the best lightweight but he beat the man...

You're the one who's off Mick ... including your mockery of Filipino boxing fans' knowledge about lineages... You seems to be fair but my respect for you become lesser because of that opinion... Why? Do you consider only Americans and Mexicans has authority/knowledge about lineages??
.

[Quinito]

The point is, not a lot of people wins 4 lineal titles. That's all I can say.

[CutMeMick]

Nothing wrong with Naito being the lineal champ, he beat the man who beat the man... Heck, Naito defeated Pongsucklick ... I can even accept Armando Santa Cruz being lineal champ at one time if the judges didn't rob him against Casamayor... Santa Cruz is not the best lightweight but he beat the man...

OK, I am asking you a simple question yes or no.
Is Naito the lineal champ?

You're the one who's off Mick ... including your mockery of Filipino boxing fans' knowledge about lineages... You seems to be fair but my respect for you become lesser because of that opinion... Why? Do you consider only Americans and Mexicans has authority/knowledge about lineages??
.

I'm ONLY mocking the ones who come on here trying to preach something that is clearly not true.
If he shoe fits, wear it.
I'm fair and I respect anyone who respects me.
At no point did I disrespect you.
Look up the lineage by Ring Magazine on the Flyweight division and you will see the lineage is lost somewhere along Chitalada-Kim, after that their is no lineal champ.
Also another bold lie Cliff typed is the whole WBC/Lineal thing.
Yes at one point it might have been or looked that way but their was no ties between the 2.
1st it was the NYSAC and then NBA formed the WBA.
1988 - Kim lineal
1989 - Vacant
1990 thru 2009 - Vacant.


The things I have to do, to get a point accross and I bet you eventhought I am clearly showing you FACTS you are still gonna be blind.

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Flyweight--1980s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Flyweight--1990s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia

Notice how the lineage is lost in 1989 and is never picked up.

[CutMeMick]

Also I don't consider Americans or Mexicans the most knowledgeable.

I consider people who do research on their own and learn about the sport.
Not just run google searches on 1 BOXER or Boxers from their country and post endless links to articles about just non-sense.

and don't give me the Caballero bull... cause clearly you'll root for anyone who can take out an opponent that's a threat to a Filipino boxer meaning Caballero to defeat JuanMa cause he's younger and is a threat to rising Filipino boxers who are trying to come up in the div.

I've got no problems debating online, I don't need writers to prove a point.
I am a student of the sport and learn everyday from people here and from the endless freaking stacks of magazines I have that I hope to read all one day and online.

But when someone like you who clearly became a Pac fan sometime around the Ledwaba or MAB fight is debating with me about something that is in the books and I know it is. It's just funny to sit here and read you try to convince yourself and other people about it.

I just proved you and Cliff and Dan wrong with those 2 links, done and dusted.

[Fenster]

Mick, The Ring went out of buisness for a short time around 89/90, when they came back they stopped recognising lineal champs. That's why the lineage is lost in 1989. They then ignored their own history when they restarted the ratings years later (2001/2).

Just check every champ in 1989 - They are all vacant.

It doesn't change the fact that - if you beat the champ you become the champ.

[XaduBoxer]

Nothing wrong with Naito being the lineal champ, he beat the man who beat the man... Heck, Naito defeated Pongsucklick ... I can even accept Armando Santa Cruz being lineal champ at one time if the judges didn't rob him against Casamayor... Santa Cruz is not the best lightweight but he beat the man...

OK, I am asking you a simple question yes or no.
Is Naito the lineal champ?

Yes...

Mick just accept for once that you got this all wrong... There's so many references around the boxing world that Naito is a lineal champ...

Daisuke Naito – World Flyweight Champion – (32-2-2, 20 KO, Lineal/WBC)

Naito has done nothing wrong to be this low on the list. That he suffers reflects more on the man he beat for the title, Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, and the nature of his division moreso than it does on the Japanese veteran. To the credit of his title, it has the farthest reach backwards into history, traceable to the reign of the great Miguel Canto. It is a line that has encompassed some excellent fighters along the way, fighters like Sot Chitalada, Yuri Arbachakov and Pacquiao. The problems at Flyweight are that the talent is often separated by national, if not continental, borders and the best fighters rarely get it on. Wonjongkam broke Canto’s record of 14 consecutive titles defenses without fights against titlists Vic Darchinyan, Eric Morel, Omar Narvaez, or Lorenzo Parra so what kind of reign was he having? Not much of one. In his two defenses so far, Naito decisioned one questionable foe in Daiki Kameda and logged a rematch draw with Wonjongkam so he’s not off to a bad start but will he face WBA titlist Takefumi Sakata or IBF titlist Nonito Donaire?