Can you be an all time great if your best win is against Jeff Lacy?

[ICB]

Well, I have to disagree there, never lost, close to Marciano's record, schooled the Viking Kessler, which nobody has see coming (for the schooling, not the win), won against B-Hop... you have to place him with the all time greats even if might not be on the top of the top.

Yes i agree Mikkel Kessler is a good win on his belt, but Mikkel Kessler isn't as great as some people make out. He won IMO a very close decision to Anthony Mundine, which is his best win. A fighter that hasn't stepped up in class for years.

And to be honest the Super Middleweight is stronger now than it was a few years ago, when Mikkel Kessler was ruling. And Mikkel Kessler hasn't stepped up since losing to Joe Calzaghe. So we actually don't know how good Mikkel Kessler really is yet.

Because the only really elite opponent he has fought is Joe Calzaghe, Librado Andrade is a goodish fighter but is one dimensional, and Anthony Mundine is a good fighter. But not really elite either, and he hasn't stepped up in years.

I actually didn't think Joe Calzaghe beat Bernard Hopkins, i thought he lost by one point. Yes Bernard Hopkins is still very good at 43. But i have no doubt in my mind that the Bernard Hopkins, that took Glen Johnson apart, or took Felix Trinidad apart, would beat Joe Calzaghe IMO.

I think Joe Calzaghe is a very good champion, but despite all his achievements. I honestly just don't see him as an ATG. But thats just my opinion.

You may be right, but remember neith JC or Nard were at their peak. Picture the Hopkins you mention above against the Calzaghe that fought Lacy, that' a better comparison

Its not an easy win for Bernard Hopkins at anytime in his career, i just think the big thing that was missing from Bernard Hopkins was workrate. In his prime he could sustain a very good pace, he would also take more risks. And his punching power was pretty good aswell, just look at his early KO's.

All these extra things were missing when he fought Joe Calzaghe, even though Bernard Hopkins is still a very good fighter. I just think he would take more chances and have the workrate and power, to beat Joe Calzaghe over 12 rounds in his prime which was probably between 1997-2001.

[JazMerkin]

Sorry, should have quoted. This is in reply to ICB's post about Kessler not being as good as people claim....

The thing is though thats how you stray into slagging off everyone territory. Theres always some reason to discredit anything or anyone.

Lacy WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did, and took him apart.

Kessler WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did and to a lesser extent gave him a boxing education too.



That, for me is more important than who their W's came againt and what has happened to them since.

I do agree with you in a way and i understand what your saying, but i see it slightly different to you. For example Jeff Lacy has now been proven as just hype and he wasn't half as good as the hype suggested. And now most of the boxing fans don't even consider it that much of a win alot of boxing fans judge that way aswell.

Now i think Mikkel Kessler is a good fighter and isn't just hype, but whatever he does from now on will affect Joe Calzaghe's win over Mikkel Kessler. Because Mikkel Kessler has actually only fought one really elite opponent, and he gave a good effort but was beaten convincingly.

Now that the Super Middleweight division is starting to become a hotter division, Mikkel Kessler hasn't stepped up and now im starting the question. How good Mikkel Kessler really is because he's best win is against Anthony Mundine a good fighter but certainly not elite.

And that win was no easy win either i only had Mikkel Kessler, winning by about 3 rounds at the most. Mikkel Kessler was a very good win for Joe Calzaghe and Joe Calzaghe does deserve credit, but like i said i would like to see how good Mikkel Kessler really is.

Do you see Joe Calzaghe as an ATG ? because i personally don't. Im not hating here but i've watched his fights i look at his record. And nothing stands out and says wow to me.

Depends how you mean? Do I think he's an ATG in being one of the 100 best fighters of all time, yeah I would probably say so. Is he in the top 50? No, & I would be amazed at anyone putting him even near the top 20. For me, whether it's Frank Warren's fault or not, he didn't fight the best for too long in his career & bar Kessler, he doesn't have a win over a prime elite fighter IMO. I think he was in his prime when he fought Hopkins, at least as much as Hopkins was in his prime fighting Trinidad as they were the same age & I've seen that fight many a time & think Hopkins won it. I can see it was close, but the best I could ever give Joe was 114-113 victory, & I have 115-112 for Hopkins now although on fight night gave it to him by a point. Jones is a painfully pale imitation of what he used to be & that fight was sad to watch knowing how different it would of been had it been 6 years earlier. Personally, I would have Joe in the general area of guys like Toney & Lennox. Still no Jimmy Wilde though

[Memphis]

Sorry, should have quoted. This is in reply to ICB's post about Kessler not being as good as people claim....

The thing is though thats how you stray into slagging off everyone territory. Theres always some reason to discredit anything or anyone.

Lacy WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did, and took him apart.

Kessler WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did and to a lesser extent gave him a boxing education too.



That, for me is more important than who their W's came againt and what has happened to them since.

I do agree with you in a way and i understand what your saying, but i see it slightly different to you. For example Jeff Lacy has now been proven as just hype and he wasn't half as good as the hype suggested. And now most of the boxing fans don't even consider it that much of a win alot of boxing fans judge that way aswell.

Now i think Mikkel Kessler is a good fighter and isn't just hype, but whatever he does from now on will affect Joe Calzaghe's win over Mikkel Kessler. Because Mikkel Kessler has actually only fought one really elite opponent, and he gave a good effort but was beaten convincingly.

Now that the Super Middleweight division is starting to become a hotter division, Mikkel Kessler hasn't stepped up and now im starting the question. How good Mikkel Kessler really is because he's best win is against Anthony Mundine a good fighter but certainly not elite.

And that win was no easy win either i only had Mikkel Kessler, winning by about 3 rounds at the most. Mikkel Kessler was a very good win for Joe Calzaghe and Joe Calzaghe does deserve credit, but like i said i would like to see how good Mikkel Kessler really is.

Do you see Joe Calzaghe as an ATG ? because i personally don't. Im not hating here but i've watched his fights i look at his record. And nothing stands out and says wow to me.

Personally I think the Lacy win was an excellent one. I think Joe totally ruined a very good fighter. The way Lacy manhandled (admitedly past his sell by date) Robin Reid convinced alot of people that he was going to dethrone Joe, Christ I think it had Joe doubting himself.

Do I think Calzaghe is an all time great? Yes I do. I think anyone at any time around 160 - 175 lbs would have had to be very special to beat him.

Amazing workrate, amazing engine, great punch resistance/recovery, great boxing brain. Those things, plus his accomplishments for me qualify him as an all time great.

I can see why people would say no though.

[ICB]

Sorry, should have quoted. This is in reply to ICB's post about Kessler not being as good as people claim....

The thing is though thats how you stray into slagging off everyone territory. Theres always some reason to discredit anything or anyone.

Lacy WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did, and took him apart.

Kessler WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did and to a lesser extent gave him a boxing education too.



That, for me is more important than who their W's came againt and what has happened to them since.

I do agree with you in a way and i understand what your saying, but i see it slightly different to you. For example Jeff Lacy has now been proven as just hype and he wasn't half as good as the hype suggested. And now most of the boxing fans don't even consider it that much of a win alot of boxing fans judge that way aswell.

Now i think Mikkel Kessler is a good fighter and isn't just hype, but whatever he does from now on will affect Joe Calzaghe's win over Mikkel Kessler. Because Mikkel Kessler has actually only fought one really elite opponent, and he gave a good effort but was beaten convincingly.

Now that the Super Middleweight division is starting to become a hotter division, Mikkel Kessler hasn't stepped up and now im starting the question. How good Mikkel Kessler really is because he's best win is against Anthony Mundine a good fighter but certainly not elite.

And that win was no easy win either i only had Mikkel Kessler, winning by about 3 rounds at the most. Mikkel Kessler was a very good win for Joe Calzaghe and Joe Calzaghe does deserve credit, but like i said i would like to see how good Mikkel Kessler really is.

Do you see Joe Calzaghe as an ATG ? because i personally don't. Im not hating here but i've watched his fights i look at his record. And nothing stands out and says wow to me.

Personally I think the Lacy win was an excellent one. I think Joe totally ruined a very good fighter. The way Lacy manhandled (admitedly past his sell by date) Robin Reid convinced alot of people that he was going to dethrone Joe, Christ I think it had Joe doubting himself.

Do I think Calzaghe is an all time great? Yes I do. I think anyone at any time around 160 - 175 lbs would have had to be very special to beat him.

Amazing workrate, amazing engine, great punch resistance/recovery, great boxing brain. Those things, plus his accomplishments for me qualify him as an all time great.

I can see why people would say no though.

Good points can't argue with that really thats your opinion which is fine, i got mine aswell i do agree it would of taken a hell of a fighter to have beaten him.

Its just a shame he wasn't an elite fighter in the early 90's, when you had fighters like Michael Nunn, Julian Jackson, James Toney, Mike McCallum, Nigel Benn, Gerald McClellan, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr.

And a little dream match up of mine is aswell is a prime John Conteh vs Joe Calzaghe. John Conteh was a hell of a fighter before he ruined his hands, and his partylife caught up with him.

[BIG H]

ICB

Has Jeff Lacy being proven to be all hype or was he just destroyed by a better fighter and therefore never recovered? I know you were never a fan ICE, but you have to admit that he looked a whole lot better before the JC fight than he does now!!

As for being an ATG: What conctitutes being an All Time great? He was undefeated for 15 years, held the SMW title for 11 years and then moved up and won a strap at LHW. It's hard to deny him ATG status, when you look at history and how many other people have not achiEved what he has.

[ICB]

ICB

Has Jeff Lacy being proven to be all hype or was he just destroyed by a better fighter and therefore never recovered? I know you were never a fan ICE, but you have to admit that he looked a whole lot better before the JC fight than he does now!!

As for being an ATG: What conctitutes being an All Time great? He was undefeated for 15 years, held the SMW title for 11 years and then moved up and won a strap at LHW. It's hard to deny him ATG status, when you look at history and how many other people have not achiEved what he has.

I agree Jeff Lacy was obviously better before the injuries, and being destroyed by Joe Calzaghe. But like i said and i know you won't believe me, but honestly i was never that impressed with Jeff Lacy. I obviously didn't think he would get dominated like that.

But his performances against Syd Vanderpool, Omar Sheika, wern't impressive performances. And those fights proved to me he wasn't as good as the hype suggested.

I think it depends on how you look at things, i mean you can give Joe Calzaghe credit for the win because of the hype Jeff Lacy had and how Joe Calzaghe beat him. But in my mind its really hard to forget his performances after that the Joe Calzaghe fight it really is.

I think Joe Calzaghe is just missing the big names to be an ATG, he has the achievements to be an ATG for sure. But the Super Middleweight division hasn't been a division that long, and most of the big fighters used that division, just to pick up a title and then skip the division.

Because except for when are British fighters were having wars at Super Middleweight, it has never really been a hot division. And it has to be said Joe Calzaghe cleaned up a division that at the time, had no big fighters.

Which isn't his fault but he was lacking a real rival in his own division, he also hasn't got any great fights under his belt. He's had good performances and good action fights, but he lacks having that real special great fight under his belt.

I mean you can question my favorite fighter Larry Holmes, for being in a bit of weak era aswell. But he had many great fights under his belt especially the one with Ken Norton, he also had a main rival in his weightclass Gerry Cooney which was one of the most hyped up fights in history.

I know you will comeback and say well Joe Calzaghe had Mikkel Kessler, but wasn't that the lowest rated sales in HBO history or something like that ? i mean that just speaks volumes to me.

IMO and it isn't all Joe Calzaghe's fault he is lacking great fights, a real main rival, and he is lacking the competition aswell, he only started to step it up in the last few years.

Im not saying my opinion is right but thats just how i see it, achievement wise he achieved alot. But he achieved it in a division thats not known to be a premiere division. And he will always be too me a very good fighter that achieved alot but fell short of being great.

[BIG H]

ICB

Has Jeff Lacy being proven to be all hype or was he just destroyed by a better fighter and therefore never recovered? I know you were never a fan ICE, but you have to admit that he looked a whole lot better before the JC fight than he does now!!

As for being an ATG: What conctitutes being an All Time great? He was undefeated for 15 years, held the SMW title for 11 years and then moved up and won a strap at LHW. It's hard to deny him ATG status, when you look at history and how many other people have not achiEved what he has.

I agree Jeff Lacy was obviously better before the injuries, and being destroyed by Joe Calzaghe. But like i said and i know you won't believe me, but honestly i was never that impressed with Jeff Lacy. I obviously didn't think he would get dominated like that.

But his performances against Syd Vanderpool, Omar Sheika, wern't impressive performances. And those fights proved to me he wasn't as good as the hype suggested.

I think it depends on how you look at things, i mean you can give Joe Calzaghe credit for the win because of the hype Jeff Lacy had and how Joe Calzaghe beat him. But in my mind its really hard to forget his performances after that the Joe Calzaghe fight it really is.

I think Joe Calzaghe is just missing the big names to be an ATG, he has the achievements to be an ATG for sure. But the Super Middleweight division hasn't been a division that long, and most of the big fighters used that division, just to pick up a title and then skip the division.

Because except for when are British fighters were having wars at Super Middleweight, it has never really been a hot division. And it has to be said Joe Calzaghe cleaned up a division that at the time, and no big fighters.

Which isn't his fault but he was lacking a real rival in his own division, he also hasn't got any great fights under his belt. He's had good performances and good action fights, but he lacks having that real special great fighter under his belt.

I mean you can question my favorite fighter Larry Holmes, for being in a bit of weak era aswell. But he had many great fights under his belt especially the one with Ken Norton, he also had a main rival in his weightclass Gerry Cooney which was one of the most hyped up fights in history.

I know you will comeback and say well Joe Calzaghe had Mikkel Kessler, but wasn't that the lowest sales or something in HBO history ? i mean that just speaks volumes to me.

IMO and it isn't all Joe Calzaghe's fault he is lacking great fights, a real main rival, and he is lacking the competition aswell, he only started to step it up the last few years.

Im not saying my opinion is right but thats just how i see it, achievement wise he achieved alot. But he achieved it in a division thats not known to be a premiere division. And he will always be too me a very good fighter that achieved alot but fell short of being great.

Believe it or not, I agree with every word of that

[boozeboxer]

ICB

Has Jeff Lacy being proven to be all hype or was he just destroyed by a better fighter and therefore never recovered? I know you were never a fan ICE, but you have to admit that he looked a whole lot better before the JC fight than he does now!!

As for being an ATG: What conctitutes being an All Time great? He was undefeated for 15 years, held the SMW title for 11 years and then moved up and won a strap at LHW. It's hard to deny him ATG status, when you look at history and how many other people have not achiEved what he has.

I agree Jeff Lacy was obviously better before the injuries, and being destroyed by Joe Calzaghe. But like i said and i know you won't believe me, but honestly i was never that impressed with Jeff Lacy. I obviously didn't think he would get dominated like that.

But his performances against Syd Vanderpool, Omar Sheika, wern't impressive performances. And those fights proved to me he wasn't as good as the hype suggested.

I think it depends on how you look at things, i mean you can give Joe Calzaghe credit for the win because of the hype Jeff Lacy had and how Joe Calzaghe beat him. But in my mind its really hard to forget his performances after that the Joe Calzaghe fight it really is.

I think Joe Calzaghe is just missing the big names to be an ATG, he has the achievements to be an ATG for sure. But the Super Middleweight division hasn't been a division that long, and most of the big fighters used that division, just to pick up a title and then skip the division.

Because except for when are British fighters were having wars at Super Middleweight, it has never really been a hot division. And it has to be said Joe Calzaghe cleaned up a division that at the time, and no big fighters.

Which isn't his fault but he was lacking a real rival in his own division, he also hasn't got any great fights under his belt. He's had good performances and good action fights, but he lacks having that real special great fighter under his belt.

I mean you can question my favorite fighter Larry Holmes, for being in a bit of weak era aswell. But he had many great fights under his belt especially the one with Ken Norton, he also had a main rival in his weightclass Gerry Cooney which was one of the most hyped up fights in history.

I know you will comeback and say well Joe Calzaghe had Mikkel Kessler, but wasn't that the lowest sales or something in HBO history ? i mean that just speaks volumes to me.

IMO and it isn't all Joe Calzaghe's fault he is lacking great fights, a real main rival, and he is lacking the competition aswell, he only started to step it up the last few years.

Im not saying my opinion is right but thats just how i see it, achievement wise he achieved alot. But he achieved it in a division thats not known to be a premiere division. And he will always be too me a very good fighter that achieved alot but fell short of being great.

Believe it or not, I agree with every word of that

Kessler/Calzaghe wasn't on PPV

[ICB]

I agree Jeff Lacy was obviously better before the injuries, and being destroyed by Joe Calzaghe. But like i said and i know you won't believe me, but honestly i was never that impressed with Jeff Lacy. I obviously didn't think he would get dominated like that.

But his performances against Syd Vanderpool, Omar Sheika, wern't impressive performances. And those fights proved to me he wasn't as good as the hype suggested.

I think it depends on how you look at things, i mean you can give Joe Calzaghe credit for the win because of the hype Jeff Lacy had and how Joe Calzaghe beat him. But in my mind its really hard to forget his performances after that the Joe Calzaghe fight it really is.

I think Joe Calzaghe is just missing the big names to be an ATG, he has the achievements to be an ATG for sure. But the Super Middleweight division hasn't been a division that long, and most of the big fighters used that division, just to pick up a title and then skip the division.

Because except for when are British fighters were having wars at Super Middleweight, it has never really been a hot division. And it has to be said Joe Calzaghe cleaned up a division that at the time, and no big fighters.

Which isn't his fault but he was lacking a real rival in his own division, he also hasn't got any great fights under his belt. He's had good performances and good action fights, but he lacks having that real special great fighter under his belt.

I mean you can question my favorite fighter Larry Holmes, for being in a bit of weak era aswell. But he had many great fights under his belt especially the one with Ken Norton, he also had a main rival in his weightclass Gerry Cooney which was one of the most hyped up fights in history.

I know you will comeback and say well Joe Calzaghe had Mikkel Kessler, but wasn't that the lowest sales or something in HBO history ? i mean that just speaks volumes to me.

IMO and it isn't all Joe Calzaghe's fault he is lacking great fights, a real main rival, and he is lacking the competition aswell, he only started to step it up the last few years.

Im not saying my opinion is right but thats just how i see it, achievement wise he achieved alot. But he achieved it in a division thats not known to be a premiere division. And he will always be too me a very good fighter that achieved alot but fell short of being great.

Believe it or not, I agree with every word of that

Kessler/Calzaghe wasn't on PPV

I can't remember if it was or wasn't, all i remember is that it received the lowest something in HBO history. I didn't know if it was views or whatever, i can't remember exactly maybe someone can remember and enlighten us.

[Mr140]

Quick question Ice so would you say you rate pound for pound different the atg list right so not just what they did but the impact that they made.

[Nameless]

Believe it or not, I agree with every word of that

Kessler/Calzaghe wasn't on PPV

I can't remember if it was or wasn't, all i remember is that it received the lowest something in HBO history. I didn't know if it was views or whatever, i can't remember exactly maybe someone can remember and enlighten us.

If my memory is good, it wasn't. I found an article that seems to say the same: Unbeatens Calzaghe, Kessler to unify super middleweight crowns - Boxing - ESPN

[Beanflicker]

Its funny how bad the memory of the average boxing fan is. I remember a time, pre-Hatton fight, when Kostya was talked about being up there with JCC and Pryor among the best 140lbers of all time. Now the poor guy isn't even a great fighter.