Can one really be ranked P4P when you demand catch weights?

[CFH]

Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.

None of the fights that propelled Pacquiao to the top of most peoples P4P rankings were fought at a catchweight.

[Rantcatrat]

Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.

None of the fights that propelled Pacquiao to the top of most peoples P4P rankings were fought at a catchweight.

Rightly stated.

Like the fighters you mentioned, Manny has won the title in many divisions.

[ER-101]

Aren't P4P Rankings all hypothetical? Why should weight even matter?

[blegit]

I think Pac should still be #1 p4p with the demanding of catchweights. I just don't think its even close to sensible for a weightclass title to be on the line when his team is demanding a catchweight for a title. That is a shenanigan that further sets boxing back. But what I do think this demanding of catchweights does is question his confidence and tarnish credibility. The all time greats went directly to the weight classes and fought the best in it. They never tried to gain an advantage by squeezing the bigger guy down to a weight determined by their team. If Pac's team was asking a small welterweight to a catchweight then thats reasonable. But they are going completely opposite. Roach has admitted his tactic by saying PBF is the only welterweight he would let Pac fight at 147 and that Mosley and Cotto have to meet at a catchweight. Leonard was way smaller than Hagler. He went to his weight class. That is all time greatness the fans want to see.

[Hulk]

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

[CFH]

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

I agree with that, but the fact that's he's demanding catchweights right now has no bearing on the fights that led to him being the #1 P4P fighter.

[Kev]

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

Why is there so much hate about catchweights?

I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?

The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.

If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.

They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.

We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.

That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.

What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.

[Hulk]

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

Why is there so much hate about catchweights?

I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?

The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.

If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.

They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.

We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.

That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.

What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.

Well my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.

Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.

So are mouth pieces.

And rounds.

Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?

lol

The weight classes are there for a reason.

Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.

Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.

That is not the Christian way.

And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.

[Julius Rain]

Well its not pac that is yet schedule for a catchweight fight, the p4p #2 and former #1 is. Floyd and jmm is at a catchweight already scheduled. the question should be...can someone who claims to be p4p #1 g.o.a.t fight at a catchweight below his division to fight a fighter 2-3 division below?

[generalbulldog]

I think Pac should still be #1 p4p with the demanding of catchweights. I just don't think its even close to sensible for a weightclass title to be on the line when his team is demanding a catchweight for a title. That is a shenanigan that further sets boxing back. But what I do think this demanding of catchweights does is question his confidence and tarnish credibility. The all time greats went directly to the weight classes and fought the best in it. They never tried to gain an advantage by squeezing the bigger guy down to a weight determined by their team. If Pac's team was asking a small welterweight to a catchweight then thats reasonable. But they are going completely opposite. Roach has admitted his tactic by saying PBF is the only welterweight he would let Pac fight at 147 and that Mosley and Cotto have to meet at a catchweight. Leonard was way smaller than Hagler. He went to his weight class. That is all time greatness the fans want to see.

You mean the same Leonard that demanded Donny Lalonde to fight at 168 for his LHW title. That Leonard? How about JCC demanding Whitaker fight at a catchweight of 145 for his WBC ww title? Or how about Oscar demanding a 39 year old Hopkins come in at 158 for his MW titles? I thought you said the all time greats didn't demand catchweights?

Pacman isn't the first to demand catchweights, and there isn't any story out there saying that the WW titles are on the line.

[Cortez The Killer]

Bad/pointless original post receive many response.

[The Congressman]

Manny never fought at catchweight though.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Aren't P4P Rankings all hypothetical? Why should weight even matter?

Welcome to Saddoboxing mate.

I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.

Its all very incestuous.

Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!

Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.

Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?

Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..

So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable?

If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.

[Kev]

Aren't P4P Rankings all hypothetical? Why should weight even matter?

Welcome to Saddoboxing mate.

I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.

Its all very incestuous.

Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!

Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.

Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?

Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..

So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable?

If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.

We don't know that Cotto cannot make 143 or 144 lbs. He looked drained in his last fights at 140 but a halfway house might be a balance.

Cotto is much bigger than Manny so for Manny to fight him at 147 is to his disadvantage. 143-44 represents a compromise. And you could hardly call Manny of being unmanly. If he was a career junior welter weight then fair enough, suck it up and move up a division but this is a guy who has already stormed through 7 (SEVEN!!!!!!) weight classes, so cutting his some slack over a few lbs in order to allow a MEGAFIGHT to happen is hardly a big deal.

As for another weight class between cruiser and heavyweight I don't believe the boxers themselves want it. Very few heavyweights would want to move down to a halfway division and miss out on the glamour of being in the heavyweights if they can fight there, it represents the pinnacle of our great sport after all, the Premier Division so to speak, you win the heavyweight title you are the best boxer in the world, in an absolute sense.

Also there is such a thing as critical mass and its been proven in countless fights in the heavyweight division over the years that beyond a certain point sheer size is simply no longer an advantage. The extra bulk comes at the cost of speed and mobility and even power, very few giant heavyweights have been one punch knockout artists.

So in the heavyweight division the difference between a man weighing 215 lbs (providing he is able to use his superior speed and mobility) and a man weighing even up to 300 lbs makes no difference in favouring one fighter over another. The better boxer will likely win, an example most would expect David Haye to smash Nikolay Valuev, certainly the 70 lbs or so he gave up would be offset by the much greater speed of the smaller man.

This simply isn't the case at lower weights where size matters more, although I do feel truly great fighters are able to overcome that to a greater degree.

But regarding catchweights, for someone like Manny who began at straweight I believe he's already proven himself man enough by tearing through 7 weight classes. We can definitely cut him some slack here and imo it's Cotto who is not the 'man' if he feels unable to cut 3 or 4 lbs compared to the 20 or lbs Pacquaio would have moved up in the past couple years.

If it was Hatton wanting a catchweight at 143 I agree gay as fuck, but Manny has earned the right and the 'machismo' burden to give something up to allow the fight to happen and prove he's the best falls very much on Cotto, Floyd or Mosely in this case imo.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Aren't P4P Rankings all hypothetical? Why should weight even matter?

Welcome to Saddoboxing mate.

I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.

Its all very incestuous.

Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!

Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.

Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?

Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..

So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable?

If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.

We don't know that Cotto cannot make 143 or 144 lbs. He looked drained in his last fights at 140 but a halfway house might be a balance.

Cotto is much bigger than Manny so for Manny to fight him at 147 is to his disadvantage. 143-44 represents a compromise. And you could hardly call Manny of being unmanly. If he was a career junior welter weight then fair enough, suck it up and move up a division but this is a guy who has already stormed through 7 (SEVEN!!!!!!) weight classes, so cutting his some slack over a few lbs in order to allow a MEGAFIGHT to happen is hardly a big deal.

As for another weight class between cruiser and heavyweight I don't believe the boxers themselves want it. Very few heavyweights would want to move down to a halfway division and miss out on the glamour of being in the heavyweights if they can fight there, it represents the pinnacle of our great sport after all, the Premier Division so to speak, you win the heavyweight title you are the best boxer in the world, in an absolute sense.

Also there is such a thing as critical mass and its been proven in countless fights in the heavyweight division over the years that beyond a certain point sheer size is simply no longer an advantage. The extra bulk comes at the cost of speed and mobility and even power, very few giant heavyweights have been one punch knockout artists.

So in the heavyweight division the difference between a man weighing 215 lbs (providing he is able to use his superior speed and mobility) and a man weighing even up to 300 lbs makes no difference in favouring one fighter over another. The better boxer will likely win, an example most would expect David Haye to smash Nikolay Valuev, certainly the 70 lbs or so he gave up would be offset by the much greater speed of the smaller man.

This simply isn't the case at lower weights where size matters more, although I do feel truly great fighters are able to overcome that to a greater degree.

But regarding catchweights, for someone like Manny who began at straweight I believe he's already proven himself man enough by tearing through 7 weight classes. We can definitely cut him some slack here and imo it's Cotto who is not the 'man' if he feels unable to cut 3 or 4 lbs compared to the 20 or lbs Pacquaio would have moved up in the past couple years.

If it was Hatton wanting a catchweight at 143 I agree gay as fuck, but Manny has earned the right and the 'machismo' burden to give something up to allow the fight to happen and prove he's the best falls very much on Cotto, Floyd or Mosely in this case imo.

But this is it. WHY should Manny Pacquiao, or Anybody be given any ''Slack'' for a shot at Glory?

Did Roy Jones ask Ruiz to cut a stone to make a fair fight? No.
Roy bulked up as much as he saw reasonable and just got on with it.

Your Haye Valuev comments are a bit of a contradiction IMO. 70lbs difference is okay for two heavyweights but ''size matters more in the lower divisions''

That's absolute rubbish Bill. Manny Fighting at 147 is a problem but Haye fighting a 300lbs monster is cool?

Surely you can see this is nonsense?