Can one really be ranked P4P when you demand catch weights?

[Kev]

I agree that the best fights should be made, but if 143 is too light for the bigger guys then what?

Well obviously if they feel that is too light they don't agree to fight there! It's all about increasing options. If Manny feels he's at too much of a disadvantage to fight guys like Cotto and Mosely at 147 lbs then the fight ain't going to happen.

BUT if there is the possibility of the two fighters negotiating an agreed weight between themselves the chances of the fight happening are greatly increased!

I can understand the argument that fighting in a proper weight class is the ideal but why on earth would anyone put the importance of fighters sticking to weight classes above the fights happening in the first place, as I said before it's such a ridiculous mindset!

In all seriousness if the fights can't happen at 147 lbs because Manny feels he's too disadvantaged are some of you guys saying you would rather not have the fight at all then let the fighters agree a weight suitable to both so the fight can happen

If any of you really value the importance of fighting in strict weight classes over the importance of the best fights being made at all I put it to you in the nicest possible way that you are freaking nuts!

I'm just not up for watching another pac v delahoya..that was some bullshit and if there's a chance that any of the welters could come in looking like that then I'd rather manny stick to 140 or below and the WW's fight each other...there are still good and better fights to be made at WW without manny..so

Asking Cotto to give up 4 maybe even just 3 lbs is hardly another De La Hoya. Oscar came down an entire weight class that he hadn't fought in for 8 years! In fact he didn't even go down to 147, he weighed in at 142!!

Cotto was fighting at 140 only 3 years ago and being 7 years younger than Oscar doesn't have the slowed metabolism that Oscar has.

It's no way comparable, not even close.

[Pavlik]

IMHO if PAC was not succesful in destroying both ODLH and Hatton this catchweight topics will not even be brought up. Obviously alot of people is threatened by PAC. Give the guy a break he will lose too, sometime.

[Kev]

IMHO if PAC was not succesful in destroying both ODLH and Hatton this catchweight topics will not even be brought up. Obviously alot of people is threatened by PAC. Give the guy a break he will lose too, sometime.

Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.

A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

IMHO if PAC was not succesful in destroying both ODLH and Hatton this catchweight topics will not even be brought up. Obviously alot of people is threatened by PAC. Give the guy a break he will lose too, sometime.

Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.

A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans

No Bill. 147 WAS the catchweight

We all saw the effects that had.

[JonesJrMayweather]

IMHO if PAC was not succesful in destroying both ODLH and Hatton this catchweight topics will not even be brought up. Obviously alot of people is threatened by PAC. Give the guy a break he will lose too, sometime.

Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.

A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

IMHO if PAC was not succesful in destroying both ODLH and Hatton this catchweight topics will not even be brought up. Obviously alot of people is threatened by PAC. Give the guy a break he will lose too, sometime.

Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.

A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

''Cotto, just isn't allowed. Okay...? He just isn't.
Cotto is a monster at 147. It's not fair... Size matters.
I cant explain the physiology but it there you go.''

[JonesJrMayweather]

Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.

A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

''Cotto, just isn't allowed. Okay...? He just isn't.
Cotto is a monster at 147. It's not fair... Size matters.
I cant explain the physiology but it there you go.''

are you perhaps predicting Bilbo's explanation?...if so then I'm LMAO....

[Bilbo's Mom]

Ok first off curse all you disagreeing, I had to ask Saddo to boot me so I couldn't reply to this as I'm busy but I can't resist damnit

Let me answer these objections as best I can.

bzkfn said Catchweight fights for me are just another step of demeaning Boxing. We have too many world titles, too many weight divisions. The emphasis on being a 'world' champion doesn't mean much anymore.

No. What's demeaning boxing is that we have seemingly dozens of organisations with their own world title belts and upto 7 or 8 world title belts per division, including in some absurd cases two champions in the same organisation!

What's GREAT for boxing is when the alphabet paper champs get ignored and the BEST FIGHT THE BEST as in Pacquaio Cotto. Whether its for a paper belt or not who gives a shit! It's the FIGHT that counts!

@JonesJrMayweather, Ok so let's explain the Oscar thing. First off this was NOT NOT NOT NOT a catchweight fight. Oscar was a 154 lber and Manny a 135 lber. Manny agreed to jump two further weight classes whilst Oscar agreed to drop down one weight class. That's NOT a catchweight, the 147 lb weight division is a REAL division.

The fact that Oscar was weight drained is IRRELEVENT! What if Oscar had smashed Pacquiao like most were expecting? Would Manny have just moved up too high?

And please explain the logic of when a fight moves down a weight class its a catchweight fight and therefore fake bullshit but when a fighter moves up its not?

And what about the catchweight fight Hopkins vs Wright? Didn't everyone moan about that one being unfair to Wright because he had never fought above 160 and was too small for B Hop at 170lbs?

Didn't people at the time argue that B HOP should COME DOWN and fight at if not 160 then around 165 so it was fairer., YES THEY DID CHECK THE THREADS!!!!


Ok so now to the question why is it ok for Manny to fight Oscar at 147 and not Cotto or Mosely.

Well isn't obvious? All three fighters are much bigger than Manny. In a fight at either of their chosen weight classes it isn't a fair fight. Manny is a natural 135-140 lbs right that's his optimum weight so fighting these guys at THEIR optimum weight gives THEM an advantage.

So to level the playing the field a bit and allow these MEGA EVENTS, POSSIBLY BEST FIGHTS OF THE MILLENIUM!! to take place BOTH fighters have to give a little.

In Oscars case he moved down one weight class and Manny moved UP THREE! (not counting his brief water testing at lightweight)

In Mosely and Cotto's case Manny agrees to move up 3 or 4 lbs and they move down 3 or 4 lbs.

That's totally fair! And importantly it allows for these potential MEGA FIGHTS, AWESOME EVENTS WHICH EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE to take place when they OTHERWISE MIGHT NOT! How much clearer does it need to be?

(I apologise for the caps, they annoy me too, but I am an internet warrior and have no control over my frantic keyboard mashing bony fingers)

[Julius Rain]

IMHO if PAC was not succesful in destroying both ODLH and Hatton this catchweight topics will not even be brought up. Obviously alot of people is threatened by PAC. Give the guy a break he will lose too, sometime.

Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.

A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

wow are you serious with that question?

before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?

ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."

See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.

[Bilbo's Mom]

Ok I made my reply Saddo can you please save me from myself and ban this account too.

I'm going to a calm myself down now lest I get worked up into a state.

Off to the TS fap boards for me to work off some of this energy

[CFH]

Ok I made my reply Saddo can you please save me from myself and ban this account too.

I'm going to a calm myself down now lest I get worked up into a state.

Off to the TS fap boards for me to work off some of this energy

Willpower isn't exactly your forte is it?

[Youngblood]

Ok I made my reply Saddo can you please save me from myself and ban this account too.

I'm going to a calm myself down now lest I get worked up into a state.

Off to the TS fap boards for me to work off some of this energy

lmaooo

[JonesJrMayweather]

Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.

A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

wow are you serious with that question?

before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?

ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."

See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.

I totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.

How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.

Esp considering all things said. Pac weighing 142 against Oscar more recently than Cotto or mosley have been. Cotto hasn't been that small in over three years. Mosely hasn't been less than 146 in over ten years. So asking them to come down to 142 or 143, as I said considering what Manny weighed against Oscar and how he didn't appear to lose any of his ability in weighing 142. So therefore meeting at 142-143 isn't really a catch weight but rather a weight with a catch to give Manny the bigger advantage.

It's not that I'm against Manny or anything it's just if there's a hint that cotto or mosely could look like oscar, id rather not see it. And with a fighter as old as mosley 38, he could fall of cliff overnight. I'd much rather see fighters at the their own OPTIMUM WEIGHT preform against each other. Not "well I'll come in at 90% if you agree to come in at 85%." Or "I'll take a little speed off, if you take some of the power away", I want to see 100% vs 100%. If Manny isn't big enough to be 100% at WW and Cotto or Mosley are to big to be 100% lower than 147 then it shouldn't be made.

[Julius Rain]

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

wow are you serious with that question?

before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?

ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."

See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.

I totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.

How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.

Esp considering all things said. Pac weighing 142 against Oscar more recently than Cotto or mosley have been. Cotto hasn't been that small in over three years. Mosely hasn't been less than 146 in over ten years. So asking them to come down to 142 or 143, as I said considering what Manny weighed against Oscar and how he didn't appear to lose any of his ability in weighing 142. So therefore meeting at 142-143 isn't really a catch weight but rather a weight with a catch to give Manny the bigger advantage.

It's not that I'm against Manny or anything it's just if there's a hint that cotto or mosely could look like oscar, id rather not see it. And with a fighter as old as mosley 38, he could fall of cliff overnight. I'd much rather see fighters at the their own OPTIMUM WEIGHT preform against each other. Not "well I'll come in at 90% if you agree to come in at 85%." Or "I'll take a little speed off, if you take some of the power away", I want to see 100% vs 100%. If Manny isn't big enough to be 100% at WW and Cotto or Mosley are to big to be 100% lower than 147 then it shouldn't be made.

the thing is we really can't say who will come in 100% in any fight, thats why they are negotiating a catchweight. Pac looked good beating oscar but is there a double standard? Pac beat a drain Oscar or is he really good enough to fight at 147 against Cotto.

We really dont know at this point, but right now pac is at 140 and imo is still outweight. If he fights any higher he'll be more outweight, thats what gets me because people are talking about pac has the advantage but his far smaller then people acknowledge.

I think people are forgetting fight strategy matters the most. After seeing what pac did to Oscar and Hatton they seem to forget that any of these fight is still very risky/dangerous for pac.

[Bilbo's Mom]

This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...

How does this makes sense:

PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)

PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)

WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response.

wow are you serious with that question?

before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?

ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."

See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.

I totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.

How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.

I just explained it before!

Let's break it down step by step. Please read this carefully......

Manny Pacquaio was prior to the Oscar fight a brilliant 130 lb fighter, and arguably p4p number 1 in the world.

Oscar was a 154 lb multiple weight champ and the most popular and biggest grossing PPV non heavyweight champ of all time!

A fight between these two modern day legends had the potential to be a HUGE EVENT grossing MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF POUNDS.

But there was a problem, Manny is tiny and fights at 130 whereas Oscar is much bigger and fights at 154, damn so no fight, impossible....

BUT humans have invented this great idea called COMPROMISE where both parties in a contract dispute decide to give up a little something and meet in the middle to come to agreement, its a process that works very well in life across all fields

So Manny agreed to go up 17 lbs and Oscar agreed to go down 7 lbs. That was a FAIR compromise, in fact at the time it was announced everyone criticised OSCAR for picking on a smaller man and being at such an ADVANTAGE.

Now the fight happened and to everyones suprise Manny knocked Oscar the fuck out. So the critics changed their tune and started banging a different drum, Manny took the easy option! Oscar was weight drained etc! Thus the armchair fan is once again 'right' in his own eyes and an idiot in reality.


So Manny destroys Oscar and now wants bigger challenges.

Meanwhile Cotto and Mosely also want bigger challenges.

Now this is the important part. At this point NONE OF THEM CARE ABOUT WORLD TITLE TRINKET BELTS. They are all multiple weight and multiple time champions and are WORLD CLASS ELITE FIGHTERS and so want only to fight other WORLD CLASS ELITE FIGHTERS to make lots and lots of money, fot lots of bragging rights and glory to the winner and for GREAT GREAT fights for us fans.

But again there is the same problem. Manny is not as big as these guys. He's a career 130lb fighter and these are 147 lbs big guys. As Manny's optimum weight is 140 lbs it would seem its only fair that these guys also give a little, like Oscar did to COMPROMISE and thus these MEGA FIGHTS can be made.

Those who say it demeans the world titles or weight classes are so completely missing the point its unbelievable.

For Manny, Mosely, Cotto and Oscar it NO LONGER ABOUT WORLD TITLES AND WEIGHT DIVISIONS. These fighters have already DONE THAT AND CONQUERED. Now they want ONLY ELITE CHALLENGES WHICH IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL IN BOXING!!!!!

So we get to see these potential mega fights, the very very best p4p fighters in the world fighting each other ITS THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF BOXING!

But for these fights to happen there HAS to be a compromise as not all fighters weigh the same.

How can you people not understand this? It doesn't matter about weight classes and alphabet belts any more because all these fighters have all already acomplished this! When you've done that, one world titles in different weights and become the best p4p fighters in the world the goal then isn't to win more alphabet belts but to fight the OTHER best p4p fighters in the world!!!

These fights are BIGGER than alphabet world title fights, and transcend any weight class they happen to be in.

Surely you guys can grasp this?

Why in the world would you want to prevent these MEGA FIGHTS which represent the PINNACLE of our sport from occuring because you want to see the alphabet belts and weight classes respected when these fighters have already won enough belts and conquered weight classes?

These fights represent the pinnacle of boxing, and are more important than any belt or weight class, this is what you conquer weight classes and win belts for, to become the best and then fight the best!

Now the best can fight each other, but to be fair to BOTH fighters they COMPROMISE over the weight, both give up something, and both give a little ground so as to make the fights we all want to see the most!